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Post by doug61 on Jul 2, 2022 11:57:49 GMT
That's fine. The ideal tax system would discourage people from chasing money once they have enough. Why? Entrepreneurship creates employment opportunities. High earners pay tax at much higher rates than their lower-earning counterparts. A punitive taxation system, such as you advocate, is economically counterproductive. Not really true, high earners (the 1% highest) on the whole will pay far less tax as they can afford to be "tax efficient" (meaning game the system). For my tuppence worth, I'd have 50% tax once you hit over 100-150k a year but I don't even consider that the real problem. The Tories (and Tory lite Labour Party) have no interest in closing tax loopholes that cost the country billions in tax revenues. Pursuing the poor and self employed for every penny whilst letting billion pound corporations cheat the system by being registered in Luxemburg or wherever they have an office with no staff that exists purely to avoid UK tax, Shell company hiding shell company hiding shell company through the Cayman Islands. Organisations like the Daily Mail earning profits in the UK but for taxable reasons being an offshore entity based in Bermuda. "punitive" is what exactly? All tax to a degree is "punitive" if you don't believe in paying it, so it just comes down to what you are happy to pay. In effect it's only really "punitive" at the level at which it pushes people out of the country, any level below that is obviously acceptable to the payer and they can still make what they consider to be an acceptable profit else they would leave.
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Post by politician2 on Jul 2, 2022 12:18:35 GMT
The top 1% might (and notice the qualifier, might) be able to use tax allowances, reliefs and avoidance schemes to reduce their contributions significantly. However, that doesn't mean they're paying less tax than lower earners – merely at a lower overall rate. If, for example, a billionaire were able to reduce their tax contribution to 10% of their earnings, they would still be paying vastly more than a millionaire contributing at 45%.
Being registered in Luxembourg is not a tax dodge (though Luxembourg is certainly a tax haven, despite its high tax rates). The Single Market means exactly that: companies can have a head office in any EU state and pay tax there whilst doing business everywhere. Using Cayman, Bermuda, etc., is somewhat different, though in the vast majority of cases entirely legal. The Guardian, for example, despite constantly preaching about tax avoidance, uses offshore schemes to reduce its headline profits and minimise its British tax contribution.
As for "punitive": it's subjective. To one person, any tax rate over 50% might be considered punitive. To another, the rich would be getting off lightly with a marginal rate of 75%. But your final point is spot on: that's the Laffer Curve in action. You can increase taxes on people to the point where they resent paying them, and then their economic behaviour changes and they end up contributing less (or even nothing).
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 2, 2022 13:54:59 GMT
Reading your comments Pol makes me wonder what the super rich need the money for?
How many cars, properties, boats etc. does anyone need?
Who ever dies regretting they didn't buy sufficient car, houses etc?
Everyone with vast wealth should be encouraged to do something constructive with it, something that benefits the planet and makes it a better place
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Post by politician2 on Jul 2, 2022 14:14:31 GMT
Reading your comments Pol makes me wonder what the super rich need the money for? Now that is a very good question. I've often wondered that myself. I don't know any billionaires, but I do have a close friend who had a close friend who was (very nearly) one. He was, by all accounts, the most miserable man on earth: dinner parties at his house consisted of the cheapest supermarket food (as he hated to spend money), he had no particular hobbies, he was deeply religious (which made him live in a state of constant guilt about everything), and he was obsessed with getting revenge on people who had wronged him in the past. Another friend, who also knew him, compared him to Mr Burns in The Simpsons. In contrast, I have quite a few millionaire friends, and they have a great time: eating in good restaurants, drinking fine champagne like water, criss-crossing the world and indulging their hobbies to the full. I suspect there is actually a sweet spot with wealth, beyond which happiness starts to decrease. I have witnessed the lifestyles those people lead: they never get any time alone as their properties are so large they need a constant retinue of servants to maintain them. A friend of mine who is a multi-multi-millionaire and has a lovely house with its own private railway told me her one desire is to shut the door and be alone, which she can never do. But this isn't about making moral judgements or about the lifestyles we'd like to lead. It's about tax policy and the level at which we feel it is fair to tax other people.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 2, 2022 15:11:00 GMT
But this isn't about making moral judgements or about the lifestyles we'd like to lead. It's about tax policy and the level at which we feel it is fair to tax other people. It can be about whatever we want it to be about What you describe shows a spectacular lack of imagination - even the "happy" millionaires you cite choose to spend their time quaffing champagne, jet setting, and eating in expensive restaurants. What a load of old bollocks. Surely that must get boring pretty quickly? Dunno? I prefer simpler pleasures so can't get my head round it. Either way, it sounds to me like all of those people could afford to pay a bit more tax and/or use their money on more altruistic and positive endeavours
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Post by doug61 on Jul 2, 2022 16:10:52 GMT
The top 1% might (and notice the qualifier, might) be able to use tax allowances, reliefs and avoidance schemes to reduce their contributions significantly. However, that doesn't mean they're paying less tax than lower earners – merely at a lower overall rate. If, for example, a billionaire were able to reduce their tax contribution to 10% of their earnings, they would still be paying vastly more than a millionaire contributing at 45%. Being registered in Luxembourg is not a tax dodge (though Luxembourg is certainly a tax haven, despite its high tax rates). The Single Market means exactly that: companies can have a head office in any EU state and pay tax there whilst doing business everywhere. Using Cayman, Bermuda, etc., is somewhat different, though in the vast majority of cases entirely legal. The Guardian, for example, despite constantly preaching about tax avoidance, uses offshore schemes to reduce its headline profits and minimise its British tax contribution. As for "punitive": it's subjective. To one person, any tax rate over 50% might be considered punitive. To another, the rich would be getting off lightly with a marginal rate of 75%. But your final point is spot on: that's the Laffer Curve in action. You can increase taxes on people to the point where they resent paying them, and then their economic behaviour changes and they end up contributing less (or even nothing). It is a dodge, it may be legal but taxes should be paid on profits in the country they are earned, avoiding doing so is entirely a "dodge" (dodge doesn't require an element of illegality) and of course The Guardian does the same, just because it's market niche is aiming itself at faux socialists, doesn't mean that their multi million pound corporate ownership shares the beliefs it espoused in print. As for your final sentence, you seem to be implying that if people "resent" paying what the Government expects them to pay they may resort to illegal behaviour (I assume that's what you mean be "economic behaviour changes") and evade taxes, this has been a go to argument by the Tories for years to get out of paying more tax and is still as ridiculous as it ever was. If loopholes were closed then they wouldn't be able to break the bloody law in the first place.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 2, 2022 18:36:12 GMT
The Guardian....multi million pound corporate ownership... The Guardian is owned by The Scott Trust The Scott Trust's core purpose is to ensure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity The Scott Trust was established as a trust in 1936 to safeguard the values and journalistic freedom of the Guardian The Trust frees the Guardian from commercial or political interference - so no wealthy owner pulling the strings Any profits are reinvested into the journalism rather than into shareholders’ pockets Since 2008 the Scott Trust has been constituted as a limited company
More here... www.theguardian.com/the-scott-trust/2015/jul/26/the-scott-trust
There's things I don't like about the Guardian but there's no multi million pound corporate ownership
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Post by zeopold on Jul 2, 2022 20:58:36 GMT
...as in 'opportunities' for unfortunate wretches to toil for peanuts so some greedy **** can have another Lambo. Yes, fewer opportunities for people to gain employment as a result of someone else's entrepreneurship and build careers for themselves. If you define 'career' as kissing your greedy **** boss's a*** for the sake of a promotion
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Post by politician2 on Jul 3, 2022 11:45:25 GMT
It can be about whatever we want it to be about What you describe shows a spectacular lack of imagination - even the "happy" millionaires you cite choose to spend their time quaffing champagne, jet setting, and eating in expensive restaurants. What a load of old bollocks. Surely that must get boring pretty quickly? Dunno? I prefer simpler pleasures so can't get my head round it. Either way, it sounds to me like all of those people could afford to pay a bit more tax and/or use their money on more altruistic and positive endeavours Using your money to have great life experiences doesn't "show a spectacular lack of imagination" and certainly isn't "bollocks". What is the point of earning money, if not to use it to do the things that make you happy? And no, that lifestyle doesn't get boring. I haven't had a job since I was 37 and I definitely don't miss having that structure in my life. The bigger question – and I'm partly directing this to you and partly to a large proportion of people on the left – is why you think you're entitled to tell people what they should do with their post-tax income. It's their money – not yours and not anyone else's. They earned it. They get to decide how it's spent.
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Post by politician2 on Jul 3, 2022 11:50:30 GMT
The top 1% might (and notice the qualifier, might) be able to use tax allowances, reliefs and avoidance schemes to reduce their contributions significantly. However, that doesn't mean they're paying less tax than lower earners – merely at a lower overall rate. If, for example, a billionaire were able to reduce their tax contribution to 10% of their earnings, they would still be paying vastly more than a millionaire contributing at 45%. Being registered in Luxembourg is not a tax dodge (though Luxembourg is certainly a tax haven, despite its high tax rates). The Single Market means exactly that: companies can have a head office in any EU state and pay tax there whilst doing business everywhere. Using Cayman, Bermuda, etc., is somewhat different, though in the vast majority of cases entirely legal. The Guardian, for example, despite constantly preaching about tax avoidance, uses offshore schemes to reduce its headline profits and minimise its British tax contribution. As for "punitive": it's subjective. To one person, any tax rate over 50% might be considered punitive. To another, the rich would be getting off lightly with a marginal rate of 75%. But your final point is spot on: that's the Laffer Curve in action. You can increase taxes on people to the point where they resent paying them, and then their economic behaviour changes and they end up contributing less (or even nothing). It is a dodge, it may be legal but taxes should be paid on profits in the country they are earned, avoiding doing so is entirely a "dodge" (dodge doesn't require an element of illegality) and of course The Guardian does the same, just because it's market niche is aiming itself at faux socialists, doesn't mean that their multi million pound corporate ownership shares the beliefs it espoused in print. As for your final sentence, you seem to be implying that if people "resent" paying what the Government expects them to pay they may resort to illegal behaviour (I assume that's what you mean be "economic behaviour changes") and evade taxes, this has been a go to argument by the Tories for years to get out of paying more tax and is still as ridiculous as it ever was. If loopholes were closed then they wouldn't be able to break the bloody law in the first place. Paying tax in one EU country and doing business everywhere is not a dodge – it's fully tax compliant, as that is precisely how the Single Market was designed to work. In contrast, some offshore tax structures could be described as a dodge, although they're perfectly legal too. My final sentence referred back to your previous comment, and resorting to tax evasion is far from the most likely way people will react to taxes being hiked. There are plenty of more common changes in economic behaviour – not taking on overtime or additional projects, going part-time, not starting up or investing in businesses, or, for those in a position to do so, relocating to a different tax jurisdiction. As for your final sentence, this doesn't make sense. Closing tax loopholes does not prevent people from breaking the law. It makes them more likely to break the law as it renders tax structures that were previously legal illegal.
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Post by politician2 on Jul 3, 2022 11:52:11 GMT
The Guardian....multi million pound corporate ownership... The Guardian is owned by The Scott Trust The Scott Trust's core purpose is to ensure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity The Scott Trust was established as a trust in 1936 to safeguard the values and journalistic freedom of the Guardian The Trust frees the Guardian from commercial or political interference - so no wealthy owner pulling the strings Any profits are reinvested into the journalism rather than into shareholders’ pockets Since 2008 the Scott Trust has been constituted as a limited company
More here... www.theguardian.com/the-scott-trust/2015/jul/26/the-scott-trust
There's things I don't like about the Guardian but there's no multi million pound corporate ownership The point isn't who owns The Guardian. The point is that The Guardian is a serial tax avoider whilst constantly preaching against tax avoidance, and its gullible readers, well-versed in the art of doublethink, somehow manage to square that particular circle.
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Post by doug61 on Jul 3, 2022 13:48:25 GMT
The Guardian....multi million pound corporate ownership... The Guardian is owned by The Scott Trust The Scott Trust's core purpose is to ensure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity The Scott Trust was established as a trust in 1936 to safeguard the values and journalistic freedom of the Guardian The Trust frees the Guardian from commercial or political interference - so no wealthy owner pulling the strings Any profits are reinvested into the journalism rather than into shareholders’ pockets Since 2008 the Scott Trust has been constituted as a limited company
More here... www.theguardian.com/the-scott-trust/2015/jul/26/the-scott-trust
There's things I don't like about the Guardian but there's no multi million pound corporate ownership Can't remember exactly but know Private Eye has printed stories about their careful use of tax laws to avoid paying their fair share, so hardly blameless.
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Post by doug61 on Jul 3, 2022 13:53:32 GMT
It is a dodge, it may be legal but taxes should be paid on profits in the country they are earned, avoiding doing so is entirely a "dodge" (dodge doesn't require an element of illegality) and of course The Guardian does the same, just because it's market niche is aiming itself at faux socialists, doesn't mean that their multi million pound corporate ownership shares the beliefs it espoused in print. As for your final sentence, you seem to be implying that if people "resent" paying what the Government expects them to pay they may resort to illegal behaviour (I assume that's what you mean be "economic behaviour changes") and evade taxes, this has been a go to argument by the Tories for years to get out of paying more tax and is still as ridiculous as it ever was. If loopholes were closed then they wouldn't be able to break the bloody law in the first place. Paying tax in one EU country and doing business everywhere is not a dodge – it's fully tax compliant, as that is precisely how the Single Market was designed to work. In contrast, some offshore tax structures could be described as a dodge, although they're perfectly legal too. My final sentence referred back to your previous comment, and resorting to tax evasion is far from the most likely way people will react to taxes being hiked. There are plenty of more common changes in economic behaviour – not taking on overtime or additional projects, going part-time, not starting up or investing in businesses, or, for those in a position to do so, relocating to a different tax jurisdiction. As for your final sentence, this doesn't make sense. Closing tax loopholes does not prevent people from breaking the law. It makes them more likely to break the law as it renders tax structures that were previously legal illegal. Why should they break the law rather than just pay their tax like everyone else if the loopholes are closed? We shouldn't be leaving loopholes open because we worry people may break the law. Why have any laws if you go down that road. And things can be perfectly legal and be a "dodge", you are just dodging doing the right and moral thing of paying tax where you make your profits to funnelling them somewhere where you get to keep more of it. Legal? Yes, but still a dodge.
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Post by doug61 on Jul 3, 2022 13:56:43 GMT
The Guardian is owned by The Scott Trust The Scott Trust's core purpose is to ensure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian in perpetuity The Scott Trust was established as a trust in 1936 to safeguard the values and journalistic freedom of the Guardian The Trust frees the Guardian from commercial or political interference - so no wealthy owner pulling the strings Any profits are reinvested into the journalism rather than into shareholders’ pockets Since 2008 the Scott Trust has been constituted as a limited company
More here... www.theguardian.com/the-scott-trust/2015/jul/26/the-scott-trust
There's things I don't like about the Guardian but there's no multi million pound corporate ownership The point isn't who owns The Guardian. The point is that The Guardian is a serial tax avoider whilst constantly preaching against tax avoidance, and its gullible readers, well-versed in the art of doublethink, somehow manage to square that particular circle. As do owners of every paper, such as The Sun and Mail who rant about the EU and the ECHR and use these organisations at every chance they get to gain money. Please to dot try and make out that The Guardian and it's readers have the Monopoly on hypocrisy and "doublethink", and there's far more of the buggers too.
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Post by politician2 on Jul 3, 2022 13:59:36 GMT
And things can be perfectly legal and be a "dodge", you are just dodging doing the right and moral thing of paying tax where you make your profits to funnelling them somewhere where you get to keep more of it. Legal? Yes, but still a dodge. Implementing tax laws as they are intended is not a dodge. Interpreting tax laws perversely – otherwise known as "tax avoidance" – can be seen as a dodge, and in some of the more audacious tax avoidance schemes can result in behaviour that is not specifically illegal (as opposed to clearly legal). There have been occasions where HMRC has closed down some of the more egregious loopholes and retrospectively demanded tax payment and penalties for those involved in such schemes. My sympathy for those affected is limited – if you fly close to the sun, you risk melting your wings. But that doesn't mean that multinationals declaring their profits in a single EU state are "dodging" tax, or misinterpreting legislation, in any way.
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