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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 20, 2023 18:30:20 GMT
Even Tories have had enough of the Tories
Is there anything that hasn’t got worse in the last 13 years?
Everything really has gone to shit on their watch
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Post by doug61 on Oct 21, 2023 14:13:48 GMT
All the big names have gone into hiding, the couple they've managed to wheel out are desperately mumbling about "low turnout", but it's looking like an absolute wipe out for the Tories in the next election. Protest votes tend to move to the next party in line, so Tories wanting to send a message vote LibDem, this is a direct swing to Labour who are now seen as very electable back in their Tory Lite guise.
I expect more Tories to declare in the coming weeks a sudden wish to step down from politics at the next election rather than suffer the coming humiliation facing so many.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 21, 2023 15:44:53 GMT
Agreed.
They got nuthin but stupid culture wars nonsense, anti environmental stuff, and far right dog whistle sound bites. It’s tragic
Meanwhile the country is falling apart and they are helpless
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Post by personunknown on Oct 21, 2023 17:03:10 GMT
Labour just need to keep attacking the Tories on proper, tangible issues:
The dire State of the NHS and other public services.
The stagnant economy.
The cost of living crisis.
General Conservative incompetence and deceit......for example HS2, polluted waterways, RAAC roofed buildings etc
They should avoid culture war talking points like the plague.......culture, identity, and nation is ground the Tories are very comfortable on. Every time the Tories try and blather about inconsequential "woke" bollocks bring the attack back to the big 4 outlined. That's how you beat them.
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Post by politician2 on Oct 21, 2023 17:17:33 GMT
Yes, quite. My prediction for the next election – and my predictions are usually wrong, but I suspect not this time – is that it will be very similar to 1997: Labour on 400-425 seats and the Tories on 150-200.
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Post by zeopold on Oct 21, 2023 17:45:38 GMT
Is there anything that hasn’t got worse in the last 13 years? Greedy ****s' bank balances  |
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Post by doug61 on Oct 22, 2023 14:27:31 GMT
Yes, quite. My prediction for the next election – and my predictions are usually wrong, but I suspect not this time – is that it will be very similar to 1997: Labour on 400-425 seats and the Tories on 150-200. The question will be which way the Tories move though, they seem to be edging to a populist, pro driver, anti woke position in which they are going to fight the election, given that the usual solid ground of "crime" and the "economy" are no longer things they can boast about, but if we take the election as already lost, what direction will the party take afterwards. The Braverman and Badenoch hard right camps already seem to be campaigning to replace Sunak (the no faith letters apparently already going into the 1922 committee by various MPs it's reported) and the backbenchers and Tory Party members may like the "headbangers", but, as with Corbyn on the left, can the Tories ever win another election with a hard right candidate? Otherwise a move to Mordaunt would seem to be the sane choice, but as we saw when Truss stood, the right wing press ganged up with the right of the Party to destroy her. The Tory party could end up as the Corbyn Labour Party was but unlike Labour not be able to get a unified centrist position. |
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Post by politician2 on Oct 22, 2023 18:24:26 GMT
The question will be which way the Tories move though, they seem to be edging to a populist, pro driver, anti woke position in which they are going to fight the election, given that the usual solid ground of "crime" and the "economy" are no longer things they can boast about, but if we take the election as already lost, what direction will the party take afterwards. Well, this is the big question. What will the Conservative Party stand for in opposition? Come to that, what does it stand for now? The current government are not really Tories in any meaningful sense – they don't appear to believe in low taxes, small government or fast and nimble regulation. On the contrary, whilst being generically right-of-centre (but even then only inasmuch as they're clearly not socialist) they've pursued a Blairite agenda of raising the tax burden, expanding the state and creating ever more red tape. As such, there is no clear blue water between them and Starmer's ostensible vision of the Labour Party, meaning that without a significant clash of ideologies the more competent party is likely to win – and given recent events, that isn't the Conservatives. If Starmer tacks significantly left, they might regain some ground by emphasising their (ostensible) right-wing credentials, but if he tacks right in government what will they do then? Try to outflank him on the left? Move to a Republican-party-style version of right-wing politics? The first would be absurd and the second is unlikely to play well with British voters. Most likely, unless by some miracle they find a charismatic leader with a clear vision of what Toryism actually means they will drift aimlessly for about a decade, as they did after Blair's first victory, finally getting back into government when Labour cocks up and the public wants a change. That isn't likely to be much before about 2040. |
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Post by smogquixote on Oct 23, 2023 0:43:50 GMT
Me and politician2 have Sunak’s ## if anybody wants it lol |
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Post by doug61 on Oct 23, 2023 13:23:01 GMT
The question will be which way the Tories move though, they seem to be edging to a populist, pro driver, anti woke position in which they are going to fight the election, given that the usual solid ground of "crime" and the "economy" are no longer things they can boast about, but if we take the election as already lost, what direction will the party take afterwards. Well, this is the big question. What will the Conservative Party stand for in opposition? Come to that, what does it stand for now? The current government are not really Tories in any meaningful sense – they don't appear to believe in low taxes, small government or fast and nimble regulation. On the contrary, whilst being generically right-of-centre (but even then only inasmuch as they're clearly not socialist) they've pursued a Blairite agenda of raising the tax burden, expanding the state and creating ever more red tape. As such, there is no clear blue water between them and Starmer's ostensible vision of the Labour Party, meaning that without a significant clash of ideologies the more competent party is likely to win – and given recent events, that isn't the Conservatives. If Starmer tacks significantly left, they might regain some ground by emphasising their (ostensible) right-wing credentials, but if he tacks right in government what will they do then? Try to outflank him on the left? Move to a Republican-party-style version of right-wing politics? The first would be absurd and the second is unlikely to play well with British voters. Most likely, unless by some miracle they find a charismatic leader with a clear vision of what Toryism actually means they will drift aimlessly for about a decade, as they did after Blair's first victory, finally getting back into government when Labour cocks up and the public wants a change. That isn't likely to be much before about 2040. You can only "believe" in low taxes though when the economy has room for them, otherwise the markets do what they did with Liz Truss who is one of those "believers".The ground for low taxes arguable hasn't existed for a rather long time and won't for a while. Lowering taxes to buy votes or for ideological reasons just crashes the economy as we saw, the public and markets want sustainability, not pressies for the ultra wealthy and big business. By right wing Republicanism, I assume you mean Ayn Rand style "libertarianism", ie economically Conservative but socially for individual rights (unless you are a woman wanting an abortion), if so, I agree that it wouldn't play well in the UK where we still see society as a group concern rather than one all about the individual (anti UHC for example). Whereas Labour appears to have become 1 party, the Conservatives are still very much 2 parties, in fact of late they do appear to be moving rightwards in an attempt at populism politics, mind you, there are many who see a future with Farage as Conservative leader down the line. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 23, 2023 13:44:13 GMT
By vacating the centre right ground they’ve alienated a significant part of their base
Drifting ever more rightwards may gain them a few xenophobes who like their anti-migrant, anti-woke culture war nonsense but pushes their more liberally minded potential voters into the arms of the liberals and labour
It seems that the tiny conservative membership who wil vote for the next leader are a rabid and reactionary bunch of predominantly male over 60s. Lest we forget they voted for Truss 🤯. My guess they will elect someone equally ridiculous and out of step with the mood of the country and the wider electorate
Also going to be a while before people forget partygate, the corruption, the mishandling of COVID, Truss crashing the economy, Johnson lying to Parliament, austerity etc etc. Brexit will increasingly be an albatross around their neck too
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Post by politician2 on Oct 23, 2023 16:49:44 GMT
You can only "believe" in low taxes though when the economy has room for them, otherwise the markets do what they did with Liz Truss who is one of those "believers".The ground for low taxes arguable hasn't existed for a rather long time and won't for a while. Absolutely correct. I believe strongly in a low(ish) tax economy, but cutting taxes at a time of high inflation would be like pouring water on a fat fire. |
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Post by doug61 on Oct 24, 2023 11:52:07 GMT
By vacating the centre right ground they’ve alienated a significant part of their base Drifting ever more rightwards may gain them a few xenophobes who like their anti-migrant, anti-woke culture war nonsense but pushes their more liberally minded potential voters into the arms of the liberals and labour It seems that the tiny conservative membership who wil vote for the next leader are a rabid and reactionary bunch of predominantly male over 60s. Lest we forget they voted for Truss 🤯. My guess they will elect someone equally ridiculous and out of step with the mood of the country and the wider electorate Also going to be a while before people forget partygate, the corruption, the mishandling of COVID, Truss crashing the economy, Johnson lying to Parliament, austerity etc etc. Brexit will increasingly be an albatross around their neck too Therein lies their problem, the Parliamentary party has a clear majority for a centrist whilst the aged party membership has a clear majority for a hard right candidate. Sunak was only acceptable to the Parliamentary party so they had to force a coronation and avoid the democracy of having party members vote. There was talk then about that move being taken through the courts as against the party constitution, I am not sure they could pull that one again which would indicate a likely Braverman style new Conservative party after the next election. They seem in danger of falling down the rabbit hole that embraced the Labour Party with Corbyn. popular to the party members but not popular enough to ever win an election. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 24, 2023 17:25:38 GMT
Yuh huh, that's my guess too Doug. There's even talk of letters going into the 1922 committee following the recent byelection disasters. Surely they couldn't have another leadership contest? If it happens I'd guess Sunak would call an earlier election. He should call one now anyway as he's so out of ideas The current Govt are such total arseholes that they're doing this... bmmagazine.co.uk/news/taxpayers-could-lose-100m-as-hs2-land-no-longer-needed-is-sold-off/...just so Labour can't revive HS2 and at a massive loss to the taxpayer Just when you think they can't sink any lower |
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Post by zeopold on Oct 24, 2023 21:10:34 GMT
a populist, pro driver, anti woke position Business as usual. They appeal to the lowest common denominator, love pollution and hate minorities. |
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