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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 16, 2021 9:57:05 GMT
What a shitshow eh?
The Taliban have retaken control of Afghanistan
Now the UK is more insular and less internationalist I wonder what MPs are going to decide on Wednesday when they return to Parliament
It will probably just confirm there is a big void marked "Global Britain" where the UK's foreign policy used to be
Women and girls who embraced new freedoms to get an education, get a job and make their own lives have as much a right to want out of Afghanistan as any one else
I hope the government will at the very least repair our disastrous refugee policy - I'm not holding my breath though
Retreating out of Afghanistan whilst saying no to anyone non-British who wants to do the same
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Post by doug61 on Aug 16, 2021 11:47:16 GMT
What a shitshow eh? The Taliban have retaken control of Afghanistan Now the UK is more insular and less internationalist I wonder what MPs are going to decide on Wednesday when they return to Parliament It will probably just confirm there is a big void marked "Global Britain" where the UK's foreign policy used to be Women and girls who embraced new freedoms to get an education, get a job and make their own lives have as much a right to want out of Afghanistan as any one else I hope the government will at the very least repair our disastrous refugee policy - I'm not holding my breath though Retreating out of Afghanistan whilst saying no to anyone non-British who wants to do the same Waste of time recalling parliament to preen and strut and say how awful it is and condemn and say there must be peace when we can do absolutely nothing about it. The Taliban will do what they want and nobody will lift a finger to stop them. There are much bigger questions though. Why after 20 years of supposedly inplementing systems of self support and governance can it all collapse within 5 minutes? What does this mean for a future of Pakistan and Chinese soft power. How long will it be before a rise of terrorism in the west which will be inevitable? No matter how much better we think our systems of government and religions are, trying to impose them on others is always doomed to fail, Some will actually welcome the taliban back with open arms, there is still support in many regions for them, others will live under harsh and inhumane laws that have no place in 2021, but ultimately for any change to "take" it must come from within and not lead either openly or in secret from CIA and other foreign powers. www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/06/how-us-funded-abuses-led-failure-afghanistan
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 16, 2021 12:14:48 GMT
That's a brilliant article Doug
Thanks
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Post by personunknown on Aug 16, 2021 12:31:48 GMT
Attila the Hun couldn't conquer it neither could the Red Army, why did the West think it could bring democracy to it in twenty years? Truth is Afghanistan is not really a country, more of a vast land of disparate tribes who have lived a certain way for thousands of years, giving them to a capital city, urban infrastructure and elections means nothing to them.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 16, 2021 14:31:19 GMT
Attila the Hun couldn't conquer it neither could the Red Army, why did the West think it could bring democracy to it in twenty years? Truth is Afghanistan is not really a country, more of a vast land of disparate tribes who have lived a certain way for thousands of years, giving them to a capital city, urban infrastructure and elections means nothing to them. Makes me wonder if interferring in these places is ever anything more than counterproductive. Waht do you think? Mistakes have been made, as Doug's link eloquently explains, but equally it was always going to be an enormous task to create lasting democracy and impose "western" values
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Post by stu77 on Aug 16, 2021 18:13:30 GMT
I really don't know why people have kids nowadays. The world is fucking horrible and an enormous psychological burden for many. And it's dying.
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Post by zeopold on Aug 16, 2021 18:50:13 GMT
Attila the Hun couldn't conquer it neither could the Red Army, why did the West think it could bring democracy to it in twenty years? Makes me wonder if interferring in these places is ever anything more than counterproductive. Waht do you think? The British and the Russians have been meddling in the region for ages... look up 'the great game'. The British rubbed their hands with glee in anticipation of the spoils when the Ottoman Empire fell. Much of the ongoing strife across the Middle East and Central Asia is a result of British policy.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 19, 2021 6:18:16 GMT
At least Johnson got it from across the House yesterday
What a hell hole we are leaving behind
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Post by stu77 on Aug 19, 2021 6:51:51 GMT
Can't help feeling we are being subjected to some kind of mind game.
And gaslit to accept anything these people do as business as usual, no matter how corrupt hypocritical and plain wrong.
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Post by personunknown on Aug 19, 2021 6:59:22 GMT
Could this be the end of the US as the alpha super power? Trump being castigated for his lunacy was one thing but when all the UK parliament, armed forces and press turn on Biden's shameful inactions, it shows that America is no longer revered by even its once stoutest ally.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 19, 2021 9:40:38 GMT
Stephen Bush, who knows his onions...
Taxi for Dominic Raab? The Foreign Secretary is under fire after revelations in today's Mail that, despite the advice of his officials that a call to his Afghan opposite number Hanif Atmar needed to come from him, not a junior minister, the call was passed down the food chain to Zac Goldsmith, the junior minister on duty, while Raab holidayed in Crete last week.
The Mail is calling on Raab to resign for his failure to intervene to help the Afghan interpreters, as are Labour and the Liberal Democrats. And while Conservative MPs aren't quite ready to join in, they aren't far off. Both Raab and Boris Johnson's appearance in Parliament yesterday disappointed and irritated Conservative MPs. That is particularly difficult for Raab, because while Johnson's political appeal among Tory MPs has never been based on the idea he was the best administrator or the best available candidate to be Prime Minister, but on his electability, Raab's stock among MPs has always relied upon the fact he is seen as a capable minister.
But the biggest problem for Raab is that he has become the scapegoat in the minds of many Conservative MPs for events in Afghanistan. While you can make any number of reasonable political arguments about why staying on holiday was a bad look on Raab's part, as I write in my column this week, the actual on-the-ground difference it made was zero.
The Afghanistan operation was always an American-dominated one, and the British military presence there essentially came to a close in 2014. There is no meaningful prospect from a logistical perspective of the United Kingdom being able to fill the gap left by the Americans, whether alone or with our European allies, not least because in addition to a decade of spending cuts, France and Italy are still heavily involved in Libya, and much of Europe, including the UK, has a committed and active presence in the Western Sahel.
And that's before you get into the question of whether there would be any realistic political prospect of voters in Europe being willing to support an indefinite commitment in Afghanistan.
But the problem for the British government is that Boris Johnson was unable to articulate any of that yesterday in the House of Commons, in part because none of that is really the product of a coherent strategy on the UK's part.
We are closely involved with European defence and foreign policy in Africa and in Eastern Europe because we've decided that our European interests is best served by heavy alignment with the nations of the EU. But our approach to the Northern Ireland protocol means that the EU-UK relationship will be heavily antagonistic, and that in public, ministers have to downplay the extent to which the UK co-operates with the EU on defence and foreign policy.
Our China policy is to be at loggerheads with China over Hong Kong but to further cede ground to their 'Belt and Road' initiative by cutting back foreign aid. Our American policy is based on ensuring proximity to the United States - other that is, on Northern Ireland.
The spin on this used to be that our policy is one of careful pragmatism and issue-by-issue diplomacy. The reality is that our policy lacks strategy and direction. Dominic Raab isn't the reason for that, but he may yet end up as the scapegoat.
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Post by stu77 on Aug 21, 2021 13:31:25 GMT
Every single Imperial occupation of Afghanistan since Alexander the Great has had the same justification. They were all defensive invasions, necessary to reduce the “threat” from Afghanistan to the Imperial power. As those who have read my book Sikunder Burnes will know – and if you haven’t, you should – the first British occupation of 1839 was to topple a ruler viewed as potentially likely to ally with Russia and Persia in an invasion of British India. The second and third British invasions had the same justification. The Soviet invasion was to protect the Central Asian regions of the Soviet Union from infiltration by Islamic ideals. The American invasion was to stop more attacks like 9/11, as though there was something magic in the soil of Afghanistan that had prompted Osama Bin Laden and his small band of men, who had effectively left before the invasion was well established. There is nothing unique about Afghanistan here. Almost every Empire in history has ostensibly pushed its borders ever outwards, in order to protect those borders from the barbarians the other side. It is the “defensive” logic behind the expansion of Empires. It is of course a lie, to justify looting, seizure of resources, rape and aggression. Most Empires as they developed added further justifications of high civilising mission, forcing the barbarians to be more like themselves. Education, sanitation – you know the playbook. That is why we are being bombarded with meaningless statistics about how many pupils are at school now in Afghanistan under American occupation. The statistics on opium and heroin production, which had been reduced to virtually zero under the Taliban and boomed to highest ever levels under US occupation, peculiarly do not figure in this narrative. The US occupation depended for its physical survival on supporting local warlords who were the heroin producers. More www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/yet-another-imperialist-occupation-of-afghanistan-ends-in-disaster
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Post by personunknown on Aug 21, 2021 14:29:39 GMT
The Scarborough Grand Hotel barely a minutes walk from my shop is housing just under a hundred Afghan refugees, half adults half children. There has been a fantastic rally round by the local community supplying them with clothes and other essentials.
Few right wing fuckheads crawled out of the woodwork to moan, groan and whataboutery of local homeless. Brave men that they are, it's just hot air on social media.
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Post by smogquixote on Aug 24, 2021 21:42:01 GMT
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Aug 25, 2021 8:05:18 GMT
Hare brained
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