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Post by doug61 on Jan 11, 2022 16:02:14 GMT
Your arguments seem to start from a preconceived notion about black people and their intelligence as a race or proclivity to crime and not much more. No, my opinions are based on data. Data demonstrates that black people (and in the UK, specifically Caribbean black people) commit disproportionate amounts of crime compared to other ethnic groups. Data also demonstrates that black people have the lowest average intelligence of any racial group. White people have the second lowest, with the highest being Jews and Orientals. (It's important to note that this is merely an average: it doesn't mean for a moment that there aren't plenty of black PhDs or indeed Jewish dunderheads and Oriental dimwits.) The following article in The Guardian addresses relative levels of poverty in the UK for different ethnic groups: www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/02/more-than-half-of-uks-black-children-live-in-poverty-analysis-showsThe research indicates that 53% of black children live in relative poverty, compared to 26% of white children and 12% of Chinese children. The argument from The Guardian is inevitably that old canard of structural racism. In fact, no such explanation is required: higher levels of poverty in an ethnic group with lower average intelligence and lower levels of poverty in a group with higher intelligence is exactly what we would expect to find. Yes, but the data takes no notice of what creates the crime figures and you are only interested in proving something you have already decided on rather than investigate why that situation exists. As for intelligence in racial groups? Are you being serious? You think the level of intelligence (which is only a "reached" level anyway as potential is never fully harnessed) isn't intrinsically linked to upbringing? You'd rather just assume that intelligence is "race based"? Every post you make you seem to double down on simplistic racist tropes rather than show any interest in why these differences exist, and that in itself shows a lack of any serious interest beyond that which backs your viewpoint. Very frustrating. |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 16:02:33 GMT
One further point for you to ponder, Lord E: The Guardian article on poverty indicates that Bangladeshis have the lowest standard of living of any ethnic group in the UK. Therefore, according to your argument that poverty causes crime (without any cultural influences), Bangladeshis should commit the most crimes. However, they don't. The Home Office statistics to which I linked above indicate that Bangladeshis are arrested at a level only slightly higher than that for white people and at a fraction of the level of black people. If crime is solely caused by poverty, how can that be the case?
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 16:10:29 GMT
Yes, but the data takes no notice of what creates the crime figures and you are only interested in proving something you have already decided on rather than investigate why that situation exists. As for intelligence in racial groups? Are you being serious? You think the level of intelligence (which is only a "reached" level anyway as potential is never fully harnessed) isn't intrinsically linked to upbringing? You'd rather just assume that intelligence is "race based"? Every post you make you seem to double down on simplistic racist tropes rather than show any interest in why these differences exist, and that in itself shows a lack of any serious interest beyond that which backs your viewpoint. Very frustrating. Of course I'm being serious about differing average levels of intelligence between racial groups. Why would I joke about something so emotive? And yes, of course intelligence levels are linked to upbringing – which brings us back to the issue of culture. The following report concerning attainment at GCSE classified by ethnicity is interesting: www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest#by-ethnicityBlack Africans rank above the average and above white people. Black Caribbeans rank the lowest of any ethnic group, with the exception of two specific groups where children do not usually follow any formal education (Gypsy/Roma and Irish Traveller). Why? Because Africans and Caribbeans, whilst being of the same broad racial stock, are culturally very different. There are no "simplistic racial tropes" here: instead, I am offering arguments backed by data. You are entirely free to disagree with my interpretations of those data, but not the statistics themselves, even if they prove the opposite of what you prefer to believe. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 17:07:16 GMT
Of course there are other factors but what I am railing against is the simplistic and dangerous assertion that some racial groups are more predisposed than others to commit crime
Doug has hit the nail on the head when he states...
you are only interested in proving something you have already decided on rather than investigate why that situation exists
AND
Every post you make you seem to double down on simplistic racist tropes rather than show any interest in why these differences exist, and that in itself shows a lack of any serious interest beyond that which backs your viewpoint
Why point any of this out unless you're then going to dig deeper? And I don't mean a simplistic assertion that there must (also) be some "cultural factors" at play
What exactly is your point beyond that different self-identifying ethnic groups appear more likely to get involved in crime?
To what extent do you accept that some social and ethnic groups are statistically significantly more disadvantaged than others? And that this is probably the single biggest indicator of likely future criminality?
In short, seek to differentiate between causality and correlation
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 18:33:23 GMT
What exactly is your point beyond that different self-identifying ethnic groups appear more likely to get involved in crime? To what extent do you accept that some social and ethnic groups are statistically significantly more disadvantaged than others? And that this is probably the single biggest indicator of likely future criminality? In short, seek to differentiate between causality and correlation Cast your mind back to this morning, Lord E. I cited a badly written and argued article from The Guardian asserting that black people in the UK suffer from disadvantage due to the slave trade. I've put forward other factors that may be more pertinent. As for determining causality and correlation, that's the whole crux of the debate we're having. |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 11, 2022 19:36:58 GMT
you are only interested in proving something you have already decided on rather than investigate why that situation exists. Black Africans rank above the average and above white people. Make your mind up. A few pages back you were saying they'd still be living in the Stone Age if it wasn't for Massa coming along in his big boat and carrying them off to civilisation  |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 19:41:36 GMT
Make your mind up. A few pages back you were saying they'd still be living in the Stone Age if it wasn't for Massa coming along in his big boat and carrying them off to civilisation The two statements are not contradictory, Zeo. In the 16th century, Africans had not developed the wheel, which (compared to other civilisations) put them some 1500 to 2000 years away from being able to sail to other continents in large numbers. Today, British black Africans get better GCSE results than their white counterparts. If not for white explorers, they wouldn't be getting any GCSEs as they almost certainly wouldn't be here and would still be living a hunter-gatherer existence. |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 11, 2022 21:52:37 GMT
Make your mind up. A few pages back you were saying they'd still be living in the Stone Age if it wasn't for Massa coming along in his big boat and carrying them off to civilisation The two statements are not contradictory, Zeo. In the 16th century, Africans had not developed the wheel, which (compared to other civilisations) put them some 1500 to 2000 years away from being able to sail to other continents in large numbers. Today, British black Africans get better GCSE results than their white counterparts. If not for white explorers, they wouldn't be getting any GCSEs as they almost certainly wouldn't be here and would still be living a hunter-gatherer existence. Likesay, if Africans hadn't migrated 200,000 years ago the British Isles would probably still be populated by wooly mammoths and sabre toothed tigers. There are plenty of African mariners rocking up on the shores of Kent now. I trust you'll be congratulating them on making up for lost time. |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 22:09:36 GMT
Likesay, if Africans hadn't migrated 200,000 years ago the British Isles would probably still be populated by wooly mammoths and sabre toothed tigers. There are plenty of African mariners rocking up on the shores of Kent now. I trust you'll be congratulating them on making up for lost time. To your first point: yes, perfectly true. To your second: they mostly look Middle Eastern to me. But your comment made me laugh anyway, so it's all good. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 12, 2022 11:20:02 GMT
What exactly is your point beyond that different self-identifying ethnic groups appear more likely to get involved in crime? To what extent do you accept that some social and ethnic groups are statistically significantly more disadvantaged than others? And that this is probably the single biggest indicator of likely future criminality? In short, seek to differentiate between causality and correlation Cast your mind back to this morning, Lord E. I cited a badly written and argued article from The Guardian asserting that black people in the UK suffer from disadvantage due to the slave trade. I've put forward other factors that may be more pertinent. As for determining causality and correlation, that's the whole crux of the debate we're having. I didn't read the article However it is obvious that there is a link between the slave trade and racism, which is the root of the inequality minority ethnic groups disproportionately suffer from Your assertion that there might be more pertinent "other factors" specifically that some racial groups are more predisposed than others to commit crime remains lazy, dangerous and simplistic and reflects a lot of racist attitudes that sadly persist in 21st century Britain |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 12, 2022 11:28:35 GMT
^^ Yah but some woke yobbos knocked over a valuable statue and got let off  |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 12, 2022 11:50:21 GMT
Your assertion that there might be more pertinent "other factors" specifically that some racial groups are more predisposed than others to commit crime remains lazy, dangerous and simplistic and reflects a lot of racist attitudes that sadly persist in 21st century Britain No, it's not "lazy" or "dangerous" or "simplistic". Not when it's correct. I have proved my case via official statistics, indicating that black people (and especially black people of non-African descent) commit significantly more crimes than any other ethnic group. I have also refused your argument that this is solely due to their socioeconomic status, again using official statistics. What is lazy and simplistic is you continuing to argue that I'm wrong without citing any data to back up your argument. As for these "racist attitudes" persisting: people who are not influenced by political correctness can see the world as it really is. As I mentioned in another thread, I have a black friend here in the Isle of Man who told me he moved here from London (which he describes as "a multicultural hellhole full of entitled minorities jockeying for position") to get away from black people. He also told me he didn't feel he could bring up children in London. Given that he's black himself, he clearly didn't have any issue with the black people in London due to their ethnicity – he had an issue with the behaviour he had witnessed and was extremely worried that his children would grow up aspiring to be gangsters or drug dealers or rappers if he didn't give them better role models. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 12, 2022 12:43:31 GMT
This is getting very circular. I don't have data to hand. Yes, your facts are correct but that does not explain what is going on - I keep saying dig deeper. Why is this happening?
Why are those who self identify as black people of non-African descent more likely to be convicted of crime?
Are you in fact suggesting that there is something innate about this group that makes them more predisposed to crime?
What would happen if you give them all scholarships to top schools? Would this make a difference (spoiler alert - it would)?
As for your "black friend", words fail me
Convenient that he supports your simplistic stereotyping
I left London for much the same reason. I thought my children would have a better chance of avoiding a bad crowd outside of London. It never occured to me to then overlay this reasoning with some spurious race-based argument.
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Post by politician2 on Jan 12, 2022 12:54:07 GMT
This is getting very circular. I don't have data to hand. Yes, your facts are correct but that does not explain what is going on - I keep saying dig deeper. Why is this happening? Why are those who self identify as black people of non-African descent more likely to be convicted of crime? Are you in fact suggesting that there is something innate about this group that makes them more predisposed to crime? What would happen if you give them all scholarships to top schools? Would this make a difference (spoiler alert - it would)? As for your "black friend", words fail me Convenient that he supports your simplistic stereotyping I left London for much the same reason. I thought my children would have a better chance of avoiding a bad crowd outside of London. It never occured to me to then overlay this reasoning with some spurious race-based argument. "Why is this happening?" and "Why are those who self identify as black people of non-African descent more likely to be convicted of crime?" are indeed the pertinent questions. And yes, I am suggesting that "there is something innate about this group that makes them more predisposed to crime" and I'm arguing that that "something innate" is culture rather than race. That argument is backed by up by data that I have repeatedly cited during this debate. Equally, I suspect that if you "give them all scholarships to top schools" that would indeed make a difference. Whether it would completely eradicate cultural differences, I have no idea. Finally, are you suggesting that my "black friend" doesn't actually exist? It may indeed be "convenient" that he and I share some views, but there is no "simplistic stereotyping" on either part – he is one of the smartest and most educated people I know, with an excellent career as a currencies trader. And if he has witnessed behaviour from black people in London that means he doesn't want to live around them, why shouldn't he express that viewpoint? |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 12, 2022 13:08:35 GMT
As for your "black friend", words fail me One selfish Uncle Tom who slunk off to Gammon Island to cheat the taxman is hardly a representative sample of the Afro-Caribbean community. Here’s hoping his kids get into social activism and play Grime music really loud  |
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