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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 12:29:28 GMT
It would appear that advanced societies like ours place less value on people who can be made to work for nothing than they do on wealth-generating go-getters like Colston, I guess. See also: incarceration rates for blacks in the US Ah, the prison-industrial complex argument. That's only valid if people are being imprisoned spuriously. Do you believe that is happening on a systematic basis? Or are the higher incarceration rates for African-Americans due to a higher propensity to commit crime? |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 12:46:03 GMT
His greatest ire was reserved for northern English I seem to recall Mrs RP is English, possibly from Yorkshire, and he characterised all his inlaws as arch Brexiteers - that soon became all English working class are racist The problem with a lot of the left who merely ape what the Guardian say to look trendy though, is that "Brexit" was and is a Socialist policy, maybe not the new "faux socialists" who think that any policy against the Conservatives must equal socialism but the older traditional real Socialism, which is why Corbyn was a Brexiteer. The European Court Of Justice has continuously watered down workers rights, of course it would be better to have a Socialist government here in the UK instead of the Tory or Tory Lite choices currently on offer but his stance actually showed a misunderstanding of traditional Socialist values. V true Thatcher was v pro EU  |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 12:50:51 GMT
It would appear that advanced societies like ours place less value on people who can be made to work for nothing than they do on wealth-generating go-getters like Colston, I guess. See also: incarceration rates for blacks in the US Ah, the prison-industrial complex argument. That's only valid if people are being imprisoned spuriously. Do you believe that is happening on a systematic basis? Or are the higher incarceration rates for African-Americans due to a higher propensity to commit crime? Higher propensity to commit crime - my arse Anyone at the bottom of the economic pile will be more likely to commit crime - no matter what their ethnicity Give those same people better access to education and employment opportunities and they will be less likely to commit crime Institutionalised and systemic racism restrict employment opportunities and education If you have not grasped that reality you need to go and do some research Away with your spurious and lazy assertions |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 11, 2022 12:53:42 GMT
It would appear that advanced societies like ours place less value on people who can be made to work for nothing than they do on wealth-generating go-getters like Colston, I guess. See also: incarceration rates for blacks in the US Ah, the prison-industrial complex argument. That's only valid if people are being imprisoned spuriously. Do you believe that is happening on a systematic basis? Or are the higher incarceration rates for African-Americans due to a higher propensity to commit crime? I'll reserve judgement until such time as the police here and in the US are no longer institutionally racist. |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 12:56:54 GMT
Higher propensity to commit crime - my arse Anyone at the bottom of the economic pile will be more likely to commit crime - no matter what their ethnicity Give those same people better access to education and employment opportunities and they will be less likely to commit crime Institutionalised and systemic racism restrict employment opportunities and education If you have not grasped that reality you need to go and do some research Away with your spurious and lazy assertions I've done plenty of research, Lord E, and that research supports my contention that black people commit disproportionately more crime than any other ethnic group in the UK. This can be seen from the official government statistics below. (I should add as a caveat that these statistics refer to numbers of arrests, so it would be possible to argue that what is actually being recorded is spurious or racially motivated arrests of black people, though I don't believe that contention myself.) www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest#by-ethnicityAs such, my assertion that black people have a higher propensity to commit crime is entirely justified. Your comment merely takes us onto the next stage of the argument – why this happening. But you'll have to do better than begged questions like "Institutionalised and systemic racism restrict employment opportunities and education" – which amounts to "black people suffer from discrimination because they are being discriminated against" – if that debate is going to be productive. |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 11, 2022 13:04:44 GMT
Higher propensity to commit crime - my arse I should add as a caveat that these statistics refer to numbers of arrestsExactly. Get back to us when the pigs stop and search 19x more young white males in the inner cities and we'll have another look at the numbers. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 13:06:51 GMT
I don't dispute the "facts"
Dig deeper
Why does this happen?
If you seriously believe it's as simple as an individual's ethnicity is what makes that person more or less likely to commit crime then you badly need to do more reading and research
Essentially you are espousing pseudo-scientific Nazi race theories of Aryan and European supremecy over other ethnic or geographic groups
And we all know where that lead
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 13:16:29 GMT
you seriously believe it's as simple as an individual's ethnicity is what makes that person more or less likely to commit crime then you badly need to do more reading and research Essentially you are espousing pseudo-scientific Nazi race theories of Aryan and European supremecy over other ethnic or geographic groups And we all know where that lead No, it's clearly not that simple – but that doesn't mean that ethnicity isn't a factor. And in turn, that doesn't mean that racial heritage is solely responsible for these differences – culture clearly has a huge part to play. If you look at the arrest statistics I provided, black people of African descent are arrested at 230% the rate of white people, black people of Caribbean descent at 330% the rate, and "black other" at a staggering 640%. If racist police are indiscriminately targeting black people to produce these statistics, why are "black other" people nearly three times as likely to be arrested as black African people? The police wouldn't be able to tell one group from the other by looking at them. Similarly, if the issue is purely racial, then all black people should have a similar propensity to commit crime – and clearly they don't. The difference between "black African", "black Caribbean" and "black other" has to be cultural rather than racial, though I acknowledge that different socioeconomic conditions for the different groups could partly account for the disparity. But even that is a dubious proposition – if Britain is structurally racist, then why would it favour African black people over Caribbeans or the "other black" group? In other words, if there are differences in outcomes, perhaps they stem from differing cultures too. |
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Post by zeopold on Jan 11, 2022 14:29:08 GMT
^^ lol at the suggestion the pigs don't think they 'all look the same'  |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 14:29:13 GMT
Those terms mean very little to me. How are they defined? Who gets included within Black Other?
We know that official figures at the end of 2020 revealed that black people in the UK are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people - what part does that play?
What are the socio-economic backgrounds of those arrested?
How many are employed? University educated? Privately educated? Barely any I'd guess
Bottom line, most people drift into crime due to a lack of opportunity and the main reasons for that are to do with educational outcomes and that is determined by etc etc etc
There's no quick fixes but austerity and cuts have disportionately hit those at the bottom of the pile - which is counter productive on so many levels
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 14:57:11 GMT
Those terms mean very little to me. How are they defined? Who gets included within Black Other? We know that official figures at the end of 2020 revealed that black people in the UK are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people - what part does that play? What are the socio-economic backgrounds of those arrested? How many are employed? University educated? Privately educated? Barely any I'd guess Bottom line, most people drift into crime due to a lack of opportunity and the main reasons for that are to do with educational outcomes and that is determined by etc etc etc There's no quick fixes but austerity and cuts have disportionately hit those at the bottom of the pile - which is counter productive on so many levels "Black Other" appears to be a category on the census and is an option for people who identify as neither African nor Caribbean. It's a somewhat confusing category since all people in "Black Other" will be of either African or Caribbean heritage, so this simply muddies the waters. Stop-and-search does not create crimes (unless police are planting drugs, knives, etc. on suspects) but it can lead to the detection of crimes that would not otherwise have been recorded. However, the difference in arrest rates between different groups of British black people strongly suggests that they have different propensities to commit crimes – as Zeo notes in his post above, a racist police officer is not going to discriminate between stopping and searching different categories of black people. Moving on to your comment regarding socioeconomic status and education, I'm certain you're correct: these things clearly correlate to criminal convictions. However, they correlate both ways. By that, I mean that research shows that less intelligent people are less likely to gain qualifications and more likely to become criminals, so this doesn't necessarily imply that people with criminal convictions have suffered discrimination. But you're 100% correct that everything is influenced by everything else, which always makes these debates complex and thorny. |
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Post by doug61 on Jan 11, 2022 15:27:06 GMT
It would appear that advanced societies like ours place less value on people who can be made to work for nothing than they do on wealth-generating go-getters like Colston, I guess. See also: incarceration rates for blacks in the US Ah, the prison-industrial complex argument. That's only valid if people are being imprisoned spuriously. Do you believe that is happening on a systematic basis? Or are the higher incarceration rates for African-Americans due to a higher propensity to commit crime? There have been many case studies showing unnecessary incarceration in the US due to profit motive in their private prison business. It's certainly a system of profit used against the poor, and overall, as here under Conservative governments you can see constant underinvestment in inner cities leads to poverty and crime. Thus a higher majority of those living in the worst conditions, rather than the best, end up in the prisons and black Americans tend to be reflected higher in poverty areas due to lack of opportunities for that demographic compared to their counterparts. To try and separate poverty and crime and thus say that black Americans have a higher "propensity to commit crime" is the same sort of generalisation you used before and you do not seem to realise that unproven generalisations against one group of people is exactly what "racism" is. Any "propensity" exists due to decades of attacks on the poorest neighbourhoods combined with greater lack of opportunities for black Americans to escape from that poverty. it is only through equal investment in all areas of society that any comparisons could even start to be made. It's like saying that rich white men have a propensity to commit white collar financial crime, when of course the numbers will just reflect those largely working in that sector. Your arguments seem to start from a preconceived notion about black people and their intelligence as a race or proclivity to crime and not much more. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jan 11, 2022 15:38:47 GMT
So Black Other is people who are black but (for reasons we don't know) do not identify as being of African or West Indian heritage? And yet these people are statistically most likely to commit crime?! That's crazy and unworthy of buidling an argument around
As for the US prison system - it is geared to making profits for private companies so there is an incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible. The US draconian drug laws mean that those in prison are there for decades and it disportionately penalises those from non-white groups for obvious reasons (see above)
I don't understand where you're trying to go with this Pol
It is blindly obvious that it is not "cultural" reasons that inform the disproportionate numbers of black and ethnic groups who end up criminalised but lack of opportunities and poverty. You might as well argue that working class whites are more likely to be imprisoned that upper class or middle class whites. It's obvious but does not make it causal.
Anything other than that and you are espousing pseudo-scientific Nazi race theories of Aryan and European supremecy over other ethnic or geographic groups. I don't think you are a Nazi so maybe stop trying to get involved in their spurious ideas and, as I've repeatedly stated, dig a bit deeper
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 15:46:51 GMT
Your arguments seem to start from a preconceived notion about black people and their intelligence as a race or proclivity to crime and not much more. No, my opinions are based on data. Data demonstrates that black people (and in the UK, specifically Caribbean black people) commit disproportionate amounts of crime compared to other ethnic groups. Data also demonstrates that black people have the lowest average intelligence of any racial group. White people have the second lowest, with the highest being Jews and Orientals. (It's important to note that this is merely an average: it doesn't mean for a moment that there aren't plenty of black PhDs or indeed Jewish dunderheads and Oriental dimwits.) The following article in The Guardian addresses relative levels of poverty in the UK for different ethnic groups: www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/02/more-than-half-of-uks-black-children-live-in-poverty-analysis-showsThe research indicates that 53% of black children live in relative poverty, compared to 26% of white children and 12% of Chinese children. The argument from The Guardian is inevitably that old canard of structural racism. In fact, no such explanation is required: higher levels of poverty in an ethnic group with lower average intelligence and lower levels of poverty in a group with higher intelligence is exactly what we would expect to find. |
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Post by politician2 on Jan 11, 2022 15:53:21 GMT
So Black Other is people who are black but (for reasons we don't know) do not identify as being of African or West Indian heritage? And yet these people are statistically most likely to commit crime?! That's crazy and unworthy of buidling an argument around As for the US prison system - it is geared to making profits for private companies so there is an incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible. The US draconian drug laws mean that those in prison are there for decades and it disportionately penalises those from non-white groups for obvious reasons (see above) I don't understand where you're trying to go with this Pol It is blindly obvious that it is not "cultural" reasons that inform the disproportionate numbers of black and ethnic groups who end up criminalised but lack of opportunities and poverty. You might as well argue that working class whites are more likely to be imprisoned that upper class or middle class whites. It's obvious but does not make it causal. Anything other than that and you are espousing pseudo-scientific Nazi race theories of Aryan and European supremecy over other ethnic or geographic groups. I don't think you are a Nazi so maybe stop trying to get involved in their spurious ideas and, as I've repeatedly stated, dig a bit deeper My argument isn't specifically built around the "Black Other" figure but around the fact that figures vary significantly for different groups of black people. That discrepancy cannot be explained by police racism or structural racism or indeed race: it has to be cultural. As for "lack of opportunities and poverty" contributing to crime figures: of course they do. What I'm arguing is that that is not the sole explanation. I'd also argue that culture in turn defines "opportunities and poverty": a culture that prizes education and achievement is likely to produce better outcomes that one in which many young people have role models who are gangsters and rappers. Finally, let's try to stay away from Godwin's Law: arguing that different races have different cultures (both within and between those races), different average levels of intelligence and different propensities to commit crime clearly does not make me a Nazi. My conclusions are drawn from empirical research, as I have repeatedly demonstrated – the real debate is what's causing the discrepancies that have been identified. |
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