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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2022 19:49:53 GMT
..the part that you're not grasping is that this is a self-perpetuating problem. For every asylum seeker or economic migrant we accept, another two will attempt the Channel crossing – and so on, until it becomes impossible to process all the claims. At some point, we need to draw a line, and that point might as well be now. I grasp it but don't accept it Also it is, in a big part, a problem we helped to cause - which makes us responsible If you vote for the Labour Party, you're responsible for their actions, past and present How does that work?
Isn't it obvious? They are incapable of real fundamental change. Did they repeal any of the Tories anti union laws or benefit 'reforms'? Also, the disgrace of 'nationalising' the likes of the RBS. Socialism for the Rich, capitalism for the rest of us. My point being is that yourself and Politician carefully chose what parts of your own parties ideology when it's convenient to do so. Morally, it's disgusting that these parties have gotten away with the crimes that they have. Why the fuck should anyone trust Starmer over Johnson when he can't can't even condemn Blair for being the war criminal he is? |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 14, 2022 20:05:18 GMT
But what makes each individual voter responsible?
Once you’ve voted that’s it. You vote for an individual MP not an entire party. No voter can then exert any control on what then happens, be it good or bad. Sadly.
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Post by politician2 on Jun 14, 2022 20:20:16 GMT
I grasp it but don't accept it You don't accept that this is an escalating problem? The figures speak for themselves. In the first five months of 2021, 3112 migrants made the crossing. In the first five months of this year, 8393. At what point do we draw the line and try to solve the problem at source? 10,000 crossings a month? A week? A day? Where do you propose we draw the line, or are you now advocating open borders à la Roguepunk? |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 14, 2022 20:36:44 GMT
Why do you think it is an escalating problem?
In 2018, 37,453 people applied for asylum. This number has been roughly constant over the past five years and is substantially lower than in 2002, when the number of applications peaked at 103,000.
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Post by politician2 on Jun 14, 2022 20:41:23 GMT
Why do you think it is an escalating problem? In 2018, 37,453 people applied for asylum. This number has been roughly constant over the past five years and is substantially lower than in 2002, when the number of applications peaked at 103,000. Why do I think that migrants crossing the channel is an escalating problem? I'll simply repeat the figures I quoted a few minutes ago. In the first five months of 2021, 3112 migrants made the crossing. In the first five months of this year, 8393. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 14, 2022 20:59:26 GMT
Way down on recent years then
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Post by politician2 on Jun 14, 2022 21:03:52 GMT
8393 is way down on 3112? I think we're talking at cross-purposes here: you're citing numbers of people who have made asylum claims and I'm talking about numbers of people who have made illegal border crossings with an aim of lodging asylum claims (which may or may not have any merit).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2022 21:48:46 GMT
But what makes each individual voter responsible? Once you’ve voted that’s it. You vote for an individual MP not an entire party. No voter can then exert any control on what then happens, be it good or bad. Sadly. Each vote gives any party their mandate. That is the responsibility of the voter. The Labour Party have always been a right wing imperialist party ideologically. Would you trust Starmer to do the right thing on anything? Reading the Irish press last week, it was hardly surprising that a lot of commentators viewed him as a political opportunist who fudged the protocol issue because he didn't really want to take on the DUP, who in reality who just want to use it to reinstate the Unionist veto. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 15, 2022 5:25:56 GMT
Right now the level of competence and honesty of politicians is rock bottom
V depressing
Do I think Starmer would be an upgrade on Johnson or any other Tory? Of course
Do I want better? Of course
Do I trust him? No
Do I have anyone else to vote for?
I understand your point but not what you are advocating. No one votes because of the paucity of options?
We've been here before and you have no practical solution beyond some vague notions of individual activism which are not going to make our crappy system change anytime soon
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2022 7:39:46 GMT
Right now the level of competence and honesty of politicians is rock bottom V depressing Do I think Starmer would be an upgrade on Johnson or any other Tory? Of course Do I want better? Of course Do I trust him? No Do I have anyone else to vote for? I understand your point but not what you are advocating. No one votes because of the paucity of options? We've been here before and you have no practical solution beyond some vague notions of individual activism which are not going to make our crappy system change anytime soon I think you made the last bit up in desperation. Provide evidence of'notions of individual activism' I've stated on many occasions that post Brexit that the only solution is an independent Scotland and a United Ireland. Seeing as England made the mess that IS Brexit for the rest of the UK, the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost now. You have made your bed and unfortunately you will lie in it, almost certainly alone . Voting for that idiot Starmer won't make one bit of difference, in fact he'll get into the gutter with the Tories if necessary. Don't say I didn't warn you. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 15, 2022 7:48:52 GMT
I hear ya Rogue
However a reluctant vote for Labour is not "getting into bed" with Starmer
It's just a rational response to wanting rid of Johnson and his corrupt and law breaking bunch of incompetents
I realise you see the world in very black and white terms so struggle with nuance
Here in England the options are v limited when it comes to elections so tactical voting is the only game in town
I wish that was not the case
But, just to be clear, a reluctant vote for my local Labour MP (who is very good as it happens) is not any kind of ringing endorsement for Labour and I am not, as you never seem to remember, some rabid Labour cheerleader. Indeed my primary political concern is the climate emergency which should be everyone's priority - talk about fiddling while Rome burns - but there we are
Representative democracy is never going to bring about significant change. I accept that. But, in the meantime, I am not going to vote for a minority party as a token gesture, or spoil my ballot paper, because right now we need this nasty, corrupt, self serving, incompetent Govt out ASAP.
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Post by zeopold on Jun 15, 2022 7:54:14 GMT
I don’t “support” the Labour Party I have voted for them as the least-worst-option on many occasions If you vote for the Labour Party, you're responsible for their actions, past and present. Mea culpa. By the same token, as a communist you're responsible for the purges, gulags, engineered famines and killing fields. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2022 7:55:14 GMT
I hear ya Rogue However a reluctant vote for Labour is not "getting into bed" with Starmer It's just a rational response to wanting rid of Johnson and his corrupt and law breaking bunch of incompetents I realise you see the world in very black and white terms so struggle with nuance Here in England the options are v limited when it comes to elections so tactical voting is the only game in town I wish that was not the case But, just to be clear, a reluctant vote for my local Labour MP (who is very good as it happens) is not any kind of ringing endorsement for Labour and I am not, as you never seem to remember, some rabid Labour cheerleader. Indeed my primary political concern is the climate emergency which should be everyone's priority - talk about fiddling while Rome burns - but there we are Representative democracy is never going to bring about significant change. I accept that. But, in the meantime, I am not going to vote for a minority party as a token gesture, or spoil my ballot paper, because right now we need this nasty, corrupt, self serving, incompetent Govt out ASAP. I don't see the world in 'black and white. I see it as it is. This is the part you don't understand and deflect with 'nuance'. Stop hiding behind it. By voting Labour, past and present you have blood on your hands. I've provided examples of where Labour have stood both politically and ideologically and you seem to think by sweeping it under the carpet it makes it acceptable. As I've said you're just accepting the Tory baton which as Labour's record in government proves only makes you as bad as them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2022 7:56:04 GMT
If you vote for the Labour Party, you're responsible for their actions, past and present. Mea culpa. By the same token, as a communist you're responsible for the purges, gulags, engineered famines and killing fields. And here comes Coco right on time🤣 |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 15, 2022 7:57:16 GMT
This is fascinating....  |
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