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Post by smogquixote on Sept 24, 2020 22:14:19 GMT
Had a particularly circular discussion with my younger brother where I argued that you don’t need to be particularly talented to be a popular/successful musician. What do you think?
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 25, 2020 6:08:00 GMT
You need a certain something Smog, perhaps a combination of...
Originality, talent, charisma, musicality/hooks, branding, good looks, opportunity, luck, support/backing
Not all of them but at least a few
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 7:52:49 GMT
Definitely not, look at John Lydon.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 25, 2020 8:30:03 GMT
Definitely not, look at John Lydon. John Lydon was very talented He was an original and interesting lyricist - he was a one off in terms of look and attitude - and his vocals were perfect for the Pistols and PiL A complete game changer |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 9:03:47 GMT
The fact that he was a game changer isn't in dispute and wasn't the question.
By his own admission he couldn't sing, he was ugly and couldn't write music.
The other members of the Pistols wrote the music and McLaren and Westwood dressed him.
What he did have was a sneering arrogance and contempt.
That isn't talent by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the outdated version that he currently uses today works against him.
In some ways he was lucky to be in the right place at the right time.
He wasn't contrived. I give him that 👍
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 25, 2020 10:17:05 GMT
I wouldn't call him ugly - he was very charismatic and engaging. Something which makes him, if not good looking, then very compelling
He could write lyrics - which is just as important as being able to come up with tunes. Just ask Elton John (and Bernie Taupin)
He could sing. His singing is unique, and another essential ingredient to the Pistols sound
McLaren and Westwood did not dress him. He used some of their clothes but it was far more him than them. Look at the 76/77 photos, and you can clearly see most of it was his own ideas. Even when he was wearing Sex/Seditionaries stuff he put his own spin on it. You might say, it was his entrance his own creation
It was McLaren, Jones, Matlock and Cook's incredible good luck that he became the singer/lyricist/focal point/leader. Without John the Pistols would be nothing. That said, there was important chemistry between all of them but he was the catalyst and the major contributor
Who's doing the talking here? Who is setting the agenda? Glen, Steve and Paul's contributions are few and are very inarticulate. John on the other hand....
And look at Johnny's clothes - not a McLaren/Westwood item in evidence
If that's not talent then I don't know what is
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 10:55:44 GMT
I would agree with a lot of what you say about the old Lydon.
There's no denying that he was the focal point but to say that in isolation isn't accurate.
The Pistols wouldn't have been anything without all the people involved but out of the band members Jones was the real deal and exuded a tortured menace.
You only have to look at the Grundy footage to see this. More than anything it showed Lydon in his true light.
Shy and almost meek. He was in the arena of the establishment and he knew it. Jones on the other hand...
Lydon definitely defined punk but but it was nothing to do with talent. It was a singular mindedness regarding what he saw around him.
Yes he articulated it through his lyrics but it was ability to speak up which made him that focal point.
To say Cook and Jones couldn't write is nonsense, they were just coming from somewhere else.
Hence the difference between the post Pistols projects.
You couldn't get any more different than PiL and the Professionals.
Talent is a dirty word as far as I'm concerned anyway.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 25, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
Johnny Rotten was the vital ingredient - take him out and the Pistols would have been nothing. We would not be having this converation now.
On Grundy, Jones is just a bit more pissed than Rotten. All of them are behaving like naughty school kids after some alcohol. We shouldn't read too much into that particular chapter of the Pistols history
As an aside, I wished Grundy had never happened. The scene changed overnight, and for the worse. A few more months of organic growth would probably have been preferable, but we'll never know. Interesting counter-factual though innit?
PiL v The Professionals? Only one winner there. See also Ronnie Biggs etc. The Pistols minus Rotten were a joke
Much as I love Cook and Jones, you never got this type of magnetism, confrontation etc when either of them was on the couch promoting The Professionals...
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Post by zeopold on Sept 25, 2020 15:57:02 GMT
In pop or rock music talent helps but you have to catch the zeitgeist
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Post by stu77 on Oct 18, 2020 12:50:25 GMT
Lydon strikes me as someone who wouldn't last five minutes in the real world.
Good luck to him he played his limited hand very very well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 20:17:51 GMT
Lydon strikes me as someone who wouldn't last five minutes in the real world. Good luck to him he played his limited hand very very well. Hasn't he reinvented himself as a soccer hooligan now? Leader of the 'Emirates Humpty Dumpty Firm Fleeto No 1'😎😂👍 |
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