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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 15:21:04 GMT
Post by politician2 on Aug 28, 2022 15:21:04 GMT
Time to roll back on giving members the final say? The problem is that it was the MPs who delivered the choice between Sunak and Truss. In recent years, the Tories seem to have chosen the wrong person for the job whatever the electoral system. Labour don't have a particularly good track record either. |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 15:40:40 GMT
Post by doug61 on Aug 28, 2022 15:40:40 GMT
It's a pity that when people or media outlets want to disparage the "idea" of equality and fairness they always lurch to the cliches of "woke" going on about huge blokes with "huge penis" (why it needs to be huge is beyond me, Politician2) masquerading as women as if a tiny minority of people should or do make the 99% of the ideas that get routinely disparaged, somehow incorrect or worth ignoring. If an argument were made that all Conservative thought and opinion should be discarded and ignored because 1% of Tories are repugnant Neo Nazis, that would no doubt be regarded as ridiculous and offensive yet those same people and media sources routinely do the same based on a "Tweet" or two, which they then spin into a "outrage" or some such headline or message board rant. Lazy ideas, lazy minds and lazy journalism. You're conflating two different things here, Doug: equality and wokeness. Equality means the cishet man from Naked Attraction being able to go out plastered in make-up and wearing a minidress whilst calling himself a girl without anybody punching his lights out or being abusive to him. Wokeness means everybody else having to agree that he's a girl when he patently isn't or getting their collars felt. Finally, with regard to his penis: it didn't have to be huge, but I can assure you it was. All the penises on that programme are huge. Either it's a requirement to appear or they're "fluffing" themselves before they go on. Most likely both. I don't think a single person here disagrees that the whole Trans issue has got ridiculous, it's whether the ridiculous of that one very minority issue should be used as a weapon to bash other very sensible debates on equality as is happening all the time in the right wing media. just label it "woke" and we can ignore it, seems to be the order of the day. |
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Post by doug61 on Aug 28, 2022 15:46:32 GMT
Doesn't make a bind bit of difference who wins the Tory (lack of) leadership race, the current cost of living crisis will run to 2024 and inflation will no doubt hit 15% next year. My long time prediction of a Labour led coalition looks more and more every day a Labour majority government. Starmer realises, so just does as little as possible and keeps away from having an opinion on anything at all, they will walk the election purely from not being the Tories.
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 15:49:35 GMT
Post by doug61 on Aug 28, 2022 15:49:35 GMT
Time to roll back on giving members the final say? The problem is that it was the MPs who delivered the choice between Sunak and Truss. In recent years, the Tories seem to have chosen the wrong person for the job whatever the electoral system. Labour don't have a particularly good track record either. If any Tory were actually clever enough to be a good PM they would have stayed out of the race, knowing that a 4 years or more job in 2024 as leader of the opposition and then possibly PM was far more sensible than 2 years of chaos and being hated and then getting the boot. Perhaps Gove was that smart cookie, although he'd have to get past the Tory MPs who hate him in '24. |
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Post by zeopold on Aug 28, 2022 15:56:07 GMT
You're conflating two different things here, Doug: equality and wokeness. I don't think a single person here disagrees that the whole Trans issue has got ridiculous I'm as woke as the day is long, but a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress and I'm not about to ban Harry Potter books from my house cos JK is spooked about them hanging around the bogs when she's trying to have a p*** in peace. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 15:57:53 GMT
I'd describe The Guardian as social democratic rather than socialist. Today's Labour Party is essentially a coalition of centrists, social democrats and socialists. However, The Guardian strongly identifies itself with "wokeness" and, more broadly, identity politics, so it is firmly left-wing on cultural issues. The Independent is even more so, though its readers aren't so keen on identity politics judging from their comments: as I've said before, I think the Independent has largely become an agglomeration of clickbait articles and perversely seems to delight in trolling its readers. But more broadly, this isn't a debate about transgenderism: I doubt you'd find many people of any political persuasion who don't believe that transgender folk should be able to transition if they wish to do so. The debate is about the use of language and what can and cannot be said to and about transgender people. The Guardian is most of all a liberal paper for the middle classes. It has nothing to do with class politics whatsoever It's no accident it supports the Labour Party. To suggest it is left wing depends where you ideologically place politics.Presumably you position them to the left of your own extreme right white supremacist politics. That's why they are left to you as you have nothing to compare them to The only person who used transgenderism as an example was you. You seem to focus on it. Personally, my use of language is descriptive. It should be driven with respect. Aspects of transgenderism are right wing as to me it just seems the same old mysoginistic bullshit with or without male of female clothes and appearance. |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 17:42:06 GMT
Post by politician2 on Aug 28, 2022 17:42:06 GMT
I'm as woke as the day is long, but a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress and I'm not about to ban Harry Potter books from my house cos JK is spooked about them hanging around the bogs when she's trying to have a p*** in peace. I'd have to take issue with this. Your politics may be left-of-centre, you may be culturally aware, you may even be politically correct, but you're far too sensible to be "as woke as the day is long". I have a friend who is the high priestess of woke, and she'd feel the need to "educate you" (her favourite words) for asserting that a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress if he claims to be a woman. She's also extremely angry with JK Rowling and will only allow her little niece to read the Harry Potter books on condition that she can explain, line by line, what is so "problematic" about them. When that child becomes a teenager, she will almost certainly turn on her and out-woke her and she will be the one getting "educated" and told what is "problematic" about her attitudes. I'm not going to warn her. This is one lesson she needs to learn for herself. |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 17:47:20 GMT
Post by politician2 on Aug 28, 2022 17:47:20 GMT
It's no accident it supports the Labour Party. To suggest it is left wing depends where you ideologically place politics.Presumably you position them to the left of your own extreme right white supremacist politics. That's why they are left to you as you have nothing to compare them to I think you're projecting here. The Guardian is clearly left-of-centre: anti-Tory, pro-high and redistributive taxes, pro-immigration, pro-multiculturalism, pro-Labour, pro-feminism, anti-cultural appropriation, and so forth. The problem is that you have a very simplistic worldview: people are either communists like you or they are fascists. In other words, the issue isn't that you think I have "extreme right white supremacist politics". The issue is that you think everybody on here is right-wing. |
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Post by zeopold on Aug 28, 2022 18:19:36 GMT
I'm as woke as the day is long, but a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress and I'm not about to ban Harry Potter books from my house cos JK is spooked about them hanging around the bogs when she's trying to have a p*** in peace. - I'd have to take issue with this - a bloke in a dress is a bloke in a dress if he claims to be a woman. If they claim to be a woman Zeo: 1 Poli: 0 |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 19:56:32 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 19:56:32 GMT
It's no accident it supports the Labour Party. To suggest it is left wing depends where you ideologically place politics.Presumably you position them to the left of your own extreme right white supremacist politics. That's why they are left to you as you have nothing to compare them to I think you're projecting here. The Guardian is clearly left-of-centre: anti-Tory, pro-high and redistributive taxes, pro-immigration, pro-multiculturalism, pro-Labour, pro-feminism, anti-cultural appropriation, and so forth. The problem is that you have a very simplistic worldview: people are either communists like you or they are fascists. In other words, the issue isn't that you think I have "extreme right white supremacist politics". The issue is that you think everybody on here is right-wing. Again, you miss the point completely. Your bog standard description of the Guardian forgets one thing-it isn't and has never been a socialist newspaper and as a socialist it can in no way be described as left wing. It's not a simplistic worldview. It's an ideological position and like any ideological positions it has to fought for. Look around you just now or does the fact that people are livid with your ideological colleagues count for nothing? No it's pretty simple. Compared to Guardian readers and Labour voters I AM more left wing. This isn't a contentious remark. It's their ideological position and mine. As for you being a right wing white supremacist. Well, aren't you? Nice deflection but that's what you are despite not having the honesty and courage to admit it. This has a tenuous link to the 'woke' argument however. |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 20:23:51 GMT
Post by politician2 on Aug 28, 2022 20:23:51 GMT
Your bog standard description of the Guardian forgets one thing-it isn't and has never been a socialist newspaper and as a socialist it can in no way be described as left wing. It's not a simplistic worldview. It's an ideological position and like any ideological positions it has to fought for. Look around you just now or does the fact that people are livid with your ideological colleagues count for nothing? No it's pretty simple. Compared to Guardian readers and Labour voters I AM more left wing. This isn't a contentious remark. It's their ideological position and mine. As for you being a right wing white supremacist. Well, aren't you? As I acknowledged, The Guardian's stance is social democratic rather than socialist. But most people would still regard it as left-of-centre – it just appears right-wing from your rather extreme perspective. People are indeed very unhappy with the present Conservative government – and with good reason. I also recall that they weren't too happy with communist rule in the Eastern Bloc, the main difference being that they got arrested or shot if they protested. Doesn't stop you from being a communist, so what's your point? Finally, I am not a white supremacist by the generally accepted definition of the term, but if your definition is different then I could be. What is your definition? |
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Woke
Aug 28, 2022 23:19:28 GMT
via mobile
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Post by smogquixote on Aug 28, 2022 23:19:28 GMT
Its the new Uber woke BBC , I was more than amazed recently to discover Gary Lineker is black .Eh ? Really ? Never even considered him looking anything other than Caucasian all these years , so I was slightly baffled to say the least.Its now also player of the match rather than man of the match...........is Manchester to change its name soon .....Personchester . Honestly the world is going insane . I know that as punks here , we would be considered slightly rebellious I guess , but how do punk and wokedom mix ? I was most definitely a punk and took in a lot of its ideas and ideals.....but I am most definitely most anti woke , I have seen this stuff in my workplace and though its supposed to be s form of non discrimination , it is actually very discriminate......positive discrimination is still discrimination. Sorry but I am very uncomfortable with many woke ideals , though I would not consider myself a discriminate person, I also don't like being preached at or tried to be indoctrinated. There’s a lot to unpick there Jon I’ll mull this over and come back to it Anyone? I thought for a good minute about whether it would be practical to get this exchange put onto a t-shirt |
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Post by doug61 on Aug 29, 2022 10:34:39 GMT
Maybe the Trans issue is a reflection of the political one. People self identifying as left or right wing and picking a point along that line and saying THAT is what IS left or right wing and that anything else to the other side isn't REAL left wing or right wing. You see this in the US where the centrist Democrats are routinely described as "socialist" or "leftie" whereas their positions with regard to big business and taxation clearly posits them in the centre. I have never heard even the most "left" in the US (Bernie Sanders types) call for a programme of full scale nationalisation or the like.
It's almost like a game of "I'm lefter/righter than thou" purely used to discredit other peoples viewpoints ( don't agree with my extreme stance, then you are a racist/RINO). All about an individual's ego rather than a true reflection of anyone's political viewpoint.
Only ever see Guardian articles online and I would, based on what I have seen, describe it as a middle class liberal paper, which likes to give opinion pieces to some of the most tediously "woke" voices to cause a stir and generate clicks in exactly the same way the Mail Online does with it's far right shite. You have to separate content from "opinion" to see the real liberal position under the clickbait stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 12:01:34 GMT
Your bog standard description of the Guardian forgets one thing-it isn't and has never been a socialist newspaper and as a socialist it can in no way be described as left wing. It's not a simplistic worldview. It's an ideological position and like any ideological positions it has to fought for. Look around you just now or does the fact that people are livid with your ideological colleagues count for nothing? No it's pretty simple. Compared to Guardian readers and Labour voters I AM more left wing. This isn't a contentious remark. It's their ideological position and mine. As for you being a right wing white supremacist. Well, aren't you? As I acknowledged, The Guardian's stance is social democratic rather than socialist. But most people would still regard it as left-of-centre – it just appears right-wing from your rather extreme perspective. People are indeed very unhappy with the present Conservative government – and with good reason. I also recall that they weren't too happy with communist rule in the Eastern Bloc, the main difference being that they got arrested or shot if they protested. Doesn't stop you from being a communist, so what's your point? Finally, I am not a white supremacist by the generally accepted definition of the term, but if your definition is different then I could be. What is your definition? There's a big difference between being a social democratic and a socialist. Who are 'most people'? The difference is crucial. The mythical'left of centre' isn't socialist. Bearing in mind that in the interim I believe in giving working class people decent wages, enough money to heat their homes properly and to feed and clothe themselves adequately whilst you support a party which openly perpetuates their misery I would say that the only person on here who is an extremist is you. For years you've been banging on how correct your party's political and economic policy is and now you're questioning it? If you're wrong about this what else are you wrong about? Ah, the old Eastern Bloc argument. Show me an instance where I've supported such oppression in Eastern Europe? On the contrary you support a government and an ideology which has massacred people in Ireland for protesting about their lack of human rights and democracy. It's as if Bloody Sunday the Ballymurphy massacre and MI5's campaign in North Armagh never happen. And don't get me started on your party's support for China and Saudi Arabia. So you're a white supremacist in your own terms? Glad we got that one cleared up at last. In a nutshell White Supremacy is an extreme right wing/fascist ideology which is based on the idea that it's'normal' to suppress another races political and cultural heritage. It's also the denial of another race's right to it's identity due to the fact that white supremacists believe that all races are inferior to the white race's view of both race in nation. In other words-subjucation at birth. You can present your Paper Tiger arguments based on 'data' on here all day long but it's what you believe in what drives reality, not your interpretation of data. Look around you for proof. |
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Woke
Aug 29, 2022 12:33:13 GMT
Post by politician2 on Aug 29, 2022 12:33:13 GMT
Bearing in mind that in the interim I believe in giving working class people decent wages, enough money to heat their homes properly and to feed and clothe themselves adequately whilst you support a party which openly perpetuates their misery I would say that the only person on here who is an extremist is you. Yes, I'm sure you would say that. I doubt anyone else on here would agree with you. For years you've been banging on how correct your party's political and economic policy is and now you're questioning it? If you're wrong about this what else are you wrong about? Lots of stuff. I confidently predicted, for instance, that Putin would not be crazy enough to invade Ukraine. I certainly don't claim to be infallible. Ah, the old Eastern Bloc argument. Show me an instance where I've supported such oppression in Eastern Europe? You haven't, but you continue to support communism – a belief system that has resulted in suppression, torture and murder everywhere it has been implemented. When confronted with this argument, you resort to a "true Scotsman" defence, insisting that none of the communist systems in history practised true communism. On the contrary you support a government and an ideology which has massacred people in Ireland for protesting about their lack of human rights and democracy. It's as if Bloody Sunday the Ballymurphy massacre and MI5's campaign in North Armagh never happen. Nobody is suggesting that governments do not make the wrong calls from time to time. But you actively support regimes that systematically – and continuously – murder their citizens for ideological reasons, as demonstrated by your hagiography of Fidel Castro on his death on the old TP site. So you're a white supremacist in your own terms? Glad we got that one cleared up at last. No. I said I might be a white supremacist according to your definition, which I suspect is likely to be quite different from most other people's. In a nutshell White Supremacy is an extreme right wing/fascist ideology which is based on the idea that it's'normal' to suppress another races political and cultural heritage. What do you mean by "political heritage"? "Cultural heritage" I obviously understand, but this term seems somewhat odd. |
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