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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 16:04:46 GMT
When did New Labour split into two different, sizeable entities?
I remember some Labour MP's leaving to form the SDP in the early 80's...
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Post by Billy Idle on Feb 1, 2023 6:44:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 8:42:46 GMT
I would say most of those groups are micro groups.
Tiny factions, rebrands of existing structures and Trotskyite entryist groups.
None of these splits have been fatal unfortunately.
When 'old' Labour splits from the fanatical New Labour wing, the left in England might see some progress.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Feb 1, 2023 8:56:01 GMT
It does illustrate why both Labour and Tories stay as a single entity in an uneasy alliance of different factions
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Post by doug61 on Feb 1, 2023 10:13:57 GMT
It does illustrate why both Labour and Tories stay as a single entity in an uneasy alliance of different factions Apart from the rise of populist politicians in response to recent crises most politics has been moving to the centre ground for decades now, though, A left wing Labour Party is sadly inelectable and hasn't had a sniff of power since the early 1970's. The hard right of Thatcherism is also now unlikely to see power except in the single issue guise of Brexit or whatever. Blair/Cameron/Johnson/Starmer/Biden etc are largely interchangeable and are all business friendly Capitalists of a centre ground. The battles are won and lost in the differences where a toehold can be found. In the UK it's in more money for wages and public services v. tax cuts for the rich. Ultimately the majority of people want a vaguely competent Government that doesn't completely take the piss out of them as the Tories have overtly done for the last decade, that's why Labour will win the election, because they are now seen as competent which they weren't seen as with Corbyn (decent man but hapless politician). The ultimate thing is that if, as some people falsely claim, there is no difference between New Labour and the Tories, why do all the Unions support Labour rather than the Conservatives.? They must see a difference and they are the ones with the interests of workers must at heart. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 10:22:13 GMT
It does illustrate why both Labour and Tories stay as a single entity in an uneasy alliance of different factions They stay together because they are a shower of unprincipled bastards whose primary role is to protect big business and administer the interests of the British State. Hence the Iraq War, dealings with Saudi Arabia, Israel, China and other right wing states. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 10:26:48 GMT
It does illustrate why both Labour and Tories stay as a single entity in an uneasy alliance of different factions Apart from the rise of populist politicians in response to recent crises most politics has been moving to the centre ground for decades now, though, A left wing Labour Party is sadly inelectable and hasn't had a sniff of power since the early 1970's. The hard right of Thatcherism is also now unlikely to see power except in the single issue guise of Brexit or whatever. Blair/Cameron/Johnson/Starmer/Biden etc are largely interchangeable and are all business friendly Capitalists of a centre ground. The battles are won and lost in the differences where a toehold can be found. In the UK it's in more money for wages and public services v. tax cuts for the rich. Ultimately the majority of people want a vaguely competent Government that doesn't completely take the piss out of them as the Tories have overtly done for the last decade, that's why Labour will win the election, because they are now seen as competent which they weren't seen as with Corbyn (decent man but hapless politician). The ultimate thing is that if, as some people falsely claim, there is no difference between New Labour and the Tories, why do all the Unions support Labour rather than the Conservatives.? They must see a difference and they are the ones with the interests of workers must at heart. Not all unions support Labour. In fact most radical leaders like Dempsey and Lynch support non affiliation. In Scotland thousands of workers waive the funding of the Labour Party simultaniously when they join. If unions fund New Labour, it's akin to turkeys voting for Christmas. However, lots of Trade Union beaurocrats have no problem feathering their own nests, just like New Labour. More and more people are seeing through these Tory bastards. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Feb 1, 2023 10:37:55 GMT
Ultimately the majority of people want a vaguely competent Government that doesn't completely take the piss out of them as the Tories have overtly done for the last decade, that's why Labour will win the election, because they are now seen as competent which they weren't seen as with Corbyn (decent man but hapless politician). The ultimate thing is that if, as some people falsely claim, there is no difference between New Labour and the Tories, why do all the Unions support Labour rather than the Conservatives.? They must see a difference and they are the ones with the interests of workers must at heart. Exactly right There is a difference. Obviously. Otherwise no one would bother voting and the rabid right wing press wouldn't do everything in their power to demonise Labour Also spot on about how the Tories have completely trashed their (undeserved) reputation for integrity and economic competence Most folk just want serious politicians who don't take the piss and seem to know what theyr'e doing Hard to imagine Labour won't be some kind of improvement on the Tories but, then again, given the damage the Tories have inflicted on public services, the economy, international relations, and politicians etc it's an almighty clean up job wiht very little money to play with |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 11:05:10 GMT
That's naive in the extreme.
Just look what happened when 'old' Labour went 'new' Labour(coined by Tory Blair in 1994).
Nothing changed, it was the same policies. Anti Trade Union laws and attacks on benefits were maintained.
You can ping these posts to each other all day for reassurance but the fact remains, nothing will change.
It's just political falatio.
Meet the old boss same as the new boss.👍
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Feb 1, 2023 11:37:36 GMT
We've been through this countless times
Labour did a lot of good stuff during the Blair/Brown years
This is the bit where you say "what about the Iraq war?" and we agree that is a stain on Labour's time in office
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 11:47:53 GMT
We've been through this countless times Labour did a lot of good stuff during the Blair/Brown years This is the bit where you say "what about the Iraq war?" and we agree that is a stain on Labour's time in office That's nonsense. The minimum wage is a total red herring. It's always wheeled out as New Labour's flagship policy but if it alleviates poverty why have trade unions called for the implementation of a 'Living Wage', which incidently is voluntary to employers. Anyone, with a shred of decency would implement it immediately. New Labour have constantly refused to back the TUC on this preferring to take the side of employers. So much so that again, they have more in common with Tories as Johnson and his successors now promote it as policy as both have no problem with the reality of the working poor using foodbanks to replace parts of the welfare state. |
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Post by doug61 on Feb 1, 2023 12:45:29 GMT
We've been through this countless times Labour did a lot of good stuff during the Blair/Brown years This is the bit where you say "what about the Iraq war?" and we agree that is a stain on Labour's time in office You only have to compare Labour spending under that Blair Government on education and health to what the Conservatives spend in those areas to see a huge difference between Labour and the Conservatives. Blair was a centrist arsehole, he was the reason I switched to Green and stopped voting Labour for the first time in my life, but it's statistically undeniable that he did more for those most in need than the Tory Party does, those denying it are denying reality for their own dogma. When Thatcher came along we starting following the American creed of voting for the individual rather than the party and going for style over substance, we should judge the Labour Party on what they do in power compared to what the Conservatives do. We need to get away from the cult of personality that still exists, in a way it is good that Sunak and Starmer are both grey and bland, the next election will be fought on policies not personalities for the first time in a while, no voting for Boris just because he's an affable buffoon on the telly, people will hopefully vote on party issues. Iraq aside, for me, Blair's great sin was PFI which has been a curse on public services and wasted huge sums of money to look good financially in the short term to voters, one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated on the public. Voters only real choices are to try and make things better or tilt at windmills, pontificate and allow the Status Quo to continue. Heads down, no nonsense, mindless political posturing at the expense of those trying to muddle through these grim times. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 13:20:37 GMT
We've been through this countless times Labour did a lot of good stuff during the Blair/Brown years This is the bit where you say "what about the Iraq war?" and we agree that is a stain on Labour's time in office You only have to compare Labour spending under that Blair Government on education and health to what the Conservatives spend in those areas to see a huge difference between Labour and the Conservatives. Blair was a centrist arsehole, he was the reason I switched to Green and stopped voting Labour for the first time in my life, but it's statistically undeniable that he did more for those most in need than the Tory Party does, those denying it are denying reality for their own dogma. When Thatcher came along we starting following the American creed of voting for the individual rather than the party and going for style over substance, we should judge the Labour Party on what they do in power compared to what the Conservatives do. We need to get away from the cult of personality that still exists, in a way it is good that Sunak and Starmer are both grey and bland, the next election will be fought on policies not personalities for the first time in a while, no voting for Boris just because he's an affable buffoon on the telly, people will hopefully vote on party issues. Iraq aside, for me, Blair's great sin was PFI which has been a curse on public services and wasted huge sums of money to look good financially in the short term to voters, one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated on the public. Voters only real choices are to try and make things better or tilt at windmills, pontificate and allow the Status Quo to continue. Heads down, no nonsense, mindless political posturing at the expense of those trying to muddle through these grim times. 'Iraq and PFI aside'. As if these things don't matter. The only person who pushes anti socialist dogma is you. What do we expect from someone who proposes forced repatriation of refugees and non implementation of a decent living wage? Quasi fascism at its worst. You should look more closely at who Blair had in his government... |
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Post by doug61 on Feb 1, 2023 15:32:10 GMT
You only have to compare Labour spending under that Blair Government on education and health to what the Conservatives spend in those areas to see a huge difference between Labour and the Conservatives. Blair was a centrist arsehole, he was the reason I switched to Green and stopped voting Labour for the first time in my life, but it's statistically undeniable that he did more for those most in need than the Tory Party does, those denying it are denying reality for their own dogma. When Thatcher came along we starting following the American creed of voting for the individual rather than the party and going for style over substance, we should judge the Labour Party on what they do in power compared to what the Conservatives do. We need to get away from the cult of personality that still exists, in a way it is good that Sunak and Starmer are both grey and bland, the next election will be fought on policies not personalities for the first time in a while, no voting for Boris just because he's an affable buffoon on the telly, people will hopefully vote on party issues. Iraq aside, for me, Blair's great sin was PFI which has been a curse on public services and wasted huge sums of money to look good financially in the short term to voters, one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated on the public. Voters only real choices are to try and make things better or tilt at windmills, pontificate and allow the Status Quo to continue. Heads down, no nonsense, mindless political posturing at the expense of those trying to muddle through these grim times. 'Iraq and PFI aside'. As if these things don't matter. The only person who pushes anti socialist dogma is you. What do we expect from someone who proposes forced repatriation of refugees and non implementation of a decent living wage? Quasi fascism at its worst. You should look more closely at who Blair had in his government... Of course they matter, but you would have had both with the Tories, at least with Labour we had huge investment in Education and health which you just ignore. We live in the real world and most people want improvements for the poorest, you may be able to afford all the silly posturing but most people just want food and heat. Pose all you like but you are voting for 5 more years of Tory rule. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 15:49:55 GMT
Oooh, it's thst best you can come up with😄
If Education has been invested in why the fuck are students outside of Scotland still paying their own tuition fees and teachers are striking everywhere?
You might not like it but cuts for public sector workers have been spiralling downwards for decades.
The only people who aren't aware of this are silly middle class Guardian readers like your good self👍
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