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Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 11, 2022 14:50:58 GMT
Perhaps Doug, but let's understand rogue's tiering system before casting judgement
It might make a lot more sense when we know where other national teams sit in his system - and how me evaluates the current performance of the participating countries to determine who goes where
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 16:15:01 GMT
"third tier is nonsense", reality wise we are one of the consistent top 8 sides in the world, and going on the draw and the odd bit of fortune can be SF or finalists. We get to the QF though by beating those we should beat and consistently come off worse when we play one of the favourites even though, as like last night, we have a technically better team. For me that has been down to Southgate and his constant defensive attitude of keeping a low defensive line and trying to never lose possession along with an inability to change things around in play. He is an FA man through and through though so I suspect he will stay in place, England though won't be consistent SF or finalists though until they play an attacking high pressure game, we need not fear others, let them fear the England team, as squad wise there are only 1 or 2 better. On a separate note, I bet Kane doesn't get the shit that Saka did for a penalty miss. Wonder why. It's not nonsense. It's a fact.That's your English nationalism talking, an extremity which we know of only too well on here. Tier 1-teams who have won major championships twice or more, been to the final more than twice teams who are in the SF's/QF's on a regular basis. Tier 2-Teams who have won 1 major trophy and been in a major final more the twice, especially in the World Cup and who are regularly in SF's/QF's. Tier 3-Teams who have 1 major trophy been in one other final and sporadically get to SF's but regularly get to QF's. England definitely in 3rd tier of World Football. 👍A team who also consistently get an easier draw than most others. This explains why they are also in Tier 3. Furthermore, their only major trophy result probably wouldn't stand up in the modern game, due to dubious decisions, pitch invasions etc. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 11, 2022 18:09:17 GMT
Thanks rogue. Now I understand what you're saying.
You are rating the England national team based on tournament performance going back decades
I assumed, and I expect Doug too, that you were looking at the current squad and their performance under Southgate which is up there with the best countries in World football
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 20:21:43 GMT
Thanks rogue. Now I understand what you're saying. You are rating the England national team based on tournament performance going back decades I assumed, and I expect Doug too, that you were looking at the current squad and their performance under Southgate which is up there with the best countries in World football Well, going back 'decades', when England won their only major trophy is now irrelevant?🤔 You only have to look at the acheivements of England's European neighbours in the Euro's and the World Cup to see where they lie as a footballing nation. Definitely Tier 3. If it's based on recent form ie England getting to the final of the Euro's. What and who is it compared to? By that logic then, they still have an inferior record to Greece who actually won the tournament in 2004! |
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Post by smogquixote on Dec 11, 2022 21:54:32 GMT
Thanks rogue. Now I understand what you're saying. You are rating the England national team based on tournament performance going back decades I assumed, and I expect Doug too, that you were looking at the current squad and their performance under Southgate which is up there with the best countries in World football Well, going back 'decades', when England won their only major trophy is now irrelevant?🤔 You only have to look at the acheivements of England's European neighbours in the Euro's and the World Cup to see where they lie as a footballing nation. Definitely Tier 3. If it's based on recent form ie England getting to the final of the Euro's. What and who is it compared to? By that logic then, they still have an inferior record to Greece who actually won the tournament in 2004! The tier system seems pretty pointless if you’re assigning teams based on past glories and not current form? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 23:02:26 GMT
Well, going back 'decades', when England won their only major trophy is now irrelevant?🤔 You only have to look at the acheivements of England's European neighbours in the Euro's and the World Cup to see where they lie as a footballing nation. Definitely Tier 3. If it's based on recent form ie England getting to the final of the Euro's. What and who is it compared to? By that logic then, they still have an inferior record to Greece who actually won the tournament in 2004! The tier system seems pretty pointless if you’re assigning teams based on past glories and not current form? It isn't pointless. It's consistent to what I've said. On 'current form', England are out of a major competition(again), at the QF stage. Again, falls in with the Tier system, I've just outlined. |
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Post by stu77 on Dec 11, 2022 23:30:25 GMT
I believe Pougatch said words to the effect that Morocco would have been a formality for England. That's the kind of arrogance that almost always results in failure. Do these shit for brains never learn  Matterface and Dixon are absolutely awful and should be binned. Don't see the point of Southgate resigning. Losing to the team who will probably win this is no disgrace at all. I don't really see what more he could have done. |
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Post by smogquixote on Dec 12, 2022 5:08:26 GMT
The tier system seems pretty pointless if you’re assigning teams based on past glories and not current form? It isn't pointless. It's consistent to what I've said. On 'current form', England are out of a major competition(again), at the QF stage. Again, falls in with the Tier system, I've just outlined. Ye it’s consistent with what you’ve said but there’s not much value there, it’s all about where we’re at |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 6:41:15 GMT
On 'current form', England are out of a major competition(again), at the QF stage. Again, falls in with the Tier system, I've just outlined. Current form being what? World Cup 2022? Or do you include the last WC and the Euros? Where do you place Italy, Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Spain and Belgium on your tier system? How many tiers are there in total? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 9:22:28 GMT
It isn't pointless. It's consistent to what I've said. On 'current form', England are out of a major competition(again), at the QF stage. Again, falls in with the Tier system, I've just outlined. Ye it’s consistent with what you’ve said but there’s not much value there, it’s all about where we’re at True, but it's where England have always been. In the third Tier of world football. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 9:26:10 GMT
On 'current form', England are out of a major competition(again), at the QF stage. Again, falls in with the Tier system, I've just outlined. Current form being what? World Cup 2022? Or do you include the last WC and the Euros? Where do you place Italy, Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Spain and Belgium on your tier system? How many tiers are there in total? Current form for most England fan's is 1966!! See my answer to Smog. For England 'current form' is a bit of a red herring. In world football, they have found their level. Italy, Germany, Brazil and Spain all Tier 1. Belgium and Portugal in Tier 3 along with England. |
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Post by doug61 on Dec 12, 2022 9:50:57 GMT
Current form being what? World Cup 2022? Or do you include the last WC and the Euros? Where do you place Italy, Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Spain and Belgium on your tier system? How many tiers are there in total? Current form for most England fan's is 1966!! See my answer to Smog. For England 'current form' is a bit of a red herring. In world football, they have found their level. Italy, Germany, Brazil and Spain all Tier 1. Belgium and Portugal in Tier 3 along with England. What tier would Scotland be in, out of interest? I would think most people would consider current form in relationship to International football somewhere alongside a generation of players, say about a couple of World Cups and a Euros. By any sensible consideration that would place the English squad as consistently in the top 8 sides in World football, which I think most people who were being unbiased would consider the top tier. A second tier would likely be those who make the last 16 or consistently get to qualify for major tournaments and then a 4th tier of sides who sometimes qualify and a bottom tier of those who rarely qualify. Don't think anyone expects England to consistently be in finals, but certainly all world betting and thought puts them as a team who is always expected to make those last 8. Are you sure you aren't letting your strong anti English feeling maybe get a wee bit in the way of an honest opinion based on results over the last decade? |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 10:10:22 GMT
I'm confused rogue Either you're measuring current form or historical performance going back decades - which is it? How can Italy be above England? They haven't even qualified for the last two World Cups Germany are also going through a slump so also confused about them being in tier 1 How many tiers are there in your system? And when you talk about "current form" what do you mean? 12 months, 1-3 years, 5 years...? Given how few games international teams play I'd have thought you'd want to look at data for at least 20 matches * The FIFA rankings are, as you know, based on actual game results for all FIFA-recognised full international matches. The same (Elo) ranking process is used in domestic football, American football and a host of other sports, so universally accepted as pretty robust, and what most commentators use to measure a nation's "current form" The latest rankings are from October 22 so there will be some changes after the world cup.... 1. Brazil 2. Belgium 3. Argentina 4. France 5. England 6. Italy 7. Spain 8. Netherlands 9. Portugal 10. Denmark 11.Germany 12. Croatia Source: www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men?dateId=id13792 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 10:44:45 GMT
Fifa rankings as you say aren't static.
As you correctly point out they will change and England will drop down the rankings again.
That tier system is measured on success and likelihood of success and it could fluctuate.
Presumably, you measure a football team on how successful they are rather than their rankings?
And this is the point: England are one of the worst teams in Europe when it comes to being successful. You may point out that Italy didn't qualify for World Cups but neither have England.
You have to differentiate between looking at football from an English nationalist entitlement viewpoint and what England actually does on the football field.
The facts illustrate that they're a poor international team.
Someone mentioned technical ability. I had to laugh at that. They consistently miss penalties on a regular basis, whilst other teams tuck them away with aplomb.
That's one of the main differences between winners and losers.
Finally, if England are so good, why aren't they winning major trophies on a regular basis?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 10:49:09 GMT
Current form for most England fan's is 1966!! See my answer to Smog. For England 'current form' is a bit of a red herring. In world football, they have found their level. Italy, Germany, Brazil and Spain all Tier 1. Belgium and Portugal in Tier 3 along with England. What tier would Scotland be in, out of interest? I would think most people would consider current form in relationship to International football somewhere alongside a generation of players, say about a couple of World Cups and a Euros. By any sensible consideration that would place the English squad as consistently in the top 8 sides in World football, which I think most people who were being unbiased would consider the top tier. A second tier would likely be those who make the last 16 or consistently get to qualify for major tournaments and then a 4th tier of sides who sometimes qualify and a bottom tier of those who rarely qualify. Don't think anyone expects England to consistently be in finals, but certainly all world betting and thought puts them as a team who is always expected to make those last 8. Are you sure you aren't letting your strong anti English feeling maybe get a wee bit in the way of an honest opinion based on results over the last decade? I wouldn't put Scotland in a tier because they're not very good. However, this is about how poor England are compared to other teams. See my replies to LE. I'm not anti-English. Anti racist and anti imperialist, yes. There is a difference. |
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