|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 11:40:23 GMT
England won't drop down the FIFA rankings or, if they do, it will only be Croatia who will go above them
The likes of Senegal, Japan and Morocco will go up but not above England - other countries will go down further (e.g. Italy, Spain & Germany)
I'm not claiming England are "so good" - but they are correctly ranked
On current form, they are 5th or 6th in the world rankings which feels about right given their recent tournament performances (quarter finalist, runner up, semi finalist)
I'm not an England fan and generally hope they don't win (see earlier post) so have no motivation to talk them up but, blinkers off, they are currently one of the top six countries in the world based on performance
Also, with the potential to do even better, given the ages of their rising stars like Saka, Foden, Bellingham etc
Doug nailed it with his comments about Southgate. A more progressive and tactically astute coach would get even more out of that squad
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 11:46:34 GMT
Thats all speculation based on 'rankings'
Rankings aren't representative of football success.
Seems to me a lot of England fan's hide behind 'rankings' in their delusion that they are a top team.
They aren't. Compared to other European teams, they languish in Tier 3.
As for Southgate. Sacking the manager every time there's a failure isn't the solution.
Hard work, realistic acheivement and getting rid of the entitlement mentality is the way forward for England.
They might even get a bit of respect too.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 11:54:42 GMT
To reiterate, I'm not an England fan
My perception is all that you prescribe...
"Hard work, realistic acheivement and getting rid of the entitlement mentality"
...has already happened
"Rankings aren't representative of football success"....
It depends. Not in terms of trophies, no, but in terms of current form, yes
The "languishing in tier 3" statement is patently nonsense (given what you have said about Germany and Italy & in light of their recent struggles) and, if you can't see that, then I conclude that you have some kind of bias. You say not so it must be unconscious
I have never known you change your mind on here, or even concede any kind of counter argument, so don't expect you to start now
I'm off now - back to the boycott!
Fuck FIFA!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 12:15:32 GMT
Entitlement gone? You could have fooled me and everyone else😄
What a ludicrous thing to say.😄
So rankings are more accurate a barometer than winning?😄
Less than 10 years after winning in 1966, England missed the party in '74 and '78. What ranking did they have then?
Their lack of acheivement is what puts them in Tier 3. Not any 'rankings' from any era.😄👍
|
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 12:21:35 GMT
Their lack of acheivement is what puts them in Tier 3. Not any 'rankings' from any era.😄👍 So it is historical not "current form"? Make yer mind up |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 12:30:45 GMT
Incidently, as for not'changing my mind'. I can and do when it comes to reasoned argument.😃
However, why would I claim England are in the top tier of World Football when they've only been in two major finals in their competitive history and won only one which was nearly 57 years ago when other teams have achieved so much more?
Why would I?🤔Why would anyone?!😄
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 12:31:25 GMT
Their lack of acheivement is what puts them in Tier 3. Not any 'rankings' from any era.😄👍 So it is historical not "current form"? Make yer mind up Both. On current form, they are Tier 3👍 |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 12:44:32 GMT
Your rationale works from a historical perspective though even then I'm not sure I'd have them Tier 3
Then again this tier system only exists in your head, so who knows?
*
On current form though, nah, no way
As Doug suggests, there is a bias at work, whether you know it or not
There is no rational way to arrive at your Tier 3 conclusion
Your only counter-argument in the lack of trophies, but on that basis only the winner of a tournament would ever be in Tier 1 on current form, and yet you also have Italy and Germany in there who are both currently flops, relative speaking
*
Anyway, I've got to get back to work
Always a pleasure etc etc
|
|
|
|
Post by doug61 on Dec 12, 2022 12:48:20 GMT
What tier would Scotland be in, out of interest? I would think most people would consider current form in relationship to International football somewhere alongside a generation of players, say about a couple of World Cups and a Euros. By any sensible consideration that would place the English squad as consistently in the top 8 sides in World football, which I think most people who were being unbiased would consider the top tier. A second tier would likely be those who make the last 16 or consistently get to qualify for major tournaments and then a 4th tier of sides who sometimes qualify and a bottom tier of those who rarely qualify. Don't think anyone expects England to consistently be in finals, but certainly all world betting and thought puts them as a team who is always expected to make those last 8. Are you sure you aren't letting your strong anti English feeling maybe get a wee bit in the way of an honest opinion based on results over the last decade? I wouldn't put Scotland in a tier because they're not very good. However, this is about how poor England are compared to other teams. See my replies to LE. I'm not anti-English. Anti racist and anti imperialist, yes. There is a difference. "I'm not anti-English." Of course not, perish the thought. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 13:19:59 GMT
Your rationale works from a historical perspective though even then I'm not sure I'd have them Tier 3 Then again this tier system only exists in your head, so who knows? * On current form though, nah, no way As Doug suggests, there is a bias at work, whether you know it or not There is no rational way to arrive at your Tier 3 conclusion Your only counter-argument in the lack of trophies, but on that basis only the winner of a tournament would ever be in Tier 1 on current form, and yet you also have Italy and Germany in there who are both currently flops, relative speaking * Anyway, I've got to get back to work Always a pleasure etc etc The Tier system is based on historical success and current success. England are serial QF achievers. This is what puts them in Tier 3. On average, that is the height of their acheivement. This is a fact, not bias conjecture. If Italy and Germany are flops, what does that make England? Both Italy and Gernany have won major trophies since 1966. I wouldn't let Doug influence you unless you like to court the company of rabid right wingers. Besides, provide evidence of bias? Is Stu biased because he criticises the England team because certain people take success for granted? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 13:20:28 GMT
I wouldn't put Scotland in a tier because they're not very good. However, this is about how poor England are compared to other teams. See my replies to LE. I'm not anti-English. Anti racist and anti imperialist, yes. There is a difference. "I'm not anti-English." Of course not, perish the thought. Provide evidence of anti-Englishness. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 13:43:30 GMT
No point in just endlessly repeating the same points and expecting a different outcome Before I bow out, I'll paste the last comment again, perhaps second time round you will address the specifics.... Your rationale works from a historical perspective though even then I'm not sure I'd have them Tier 3 Then again this tier system only exists in your head, so who knows? * On current form though, nah, no way As Doug suggests, there is a bias at work, whether you know it or not There is no rational way to arrive at your Tier 3 conclusion Your only counter-argument in the lack of trophies, but on that basis only the winner of a tournament would ever be in Tier 1 on current form, and yet you also have Italy and Germany in there who are both currently flops, relative speaking * Anyway, I've got to get back to work Always a pleasure etc etc It's all there in my previous posts
Take it easy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 14:11:22 GMT
No point in just endlessly repeating the same points and expecting a different outcome Before I bow out, I'll paste the last comment again, perhaps second time round you will address the specifics.... Your rationale works from a historical perspective though even then I'm not sure I'd have them Tier 3 Then again this tier system only exists in your head, so who knows? * On current form though, nah, no way As Doug suggests, there is a bias at work, whether you know it or not There is no rational way to arrive at your Tier 3 conclusion Your only counter-argument in the lack of trophies, but on that basis only the winner of a tournament would ever be in Tier 1 on current form, and yet you also have Italy and Germany in there who are both currently flops, relative speaking * Anyway, I've got to get back to work Always a pleasure etc etc It's all there in my previous posts
Take it easy
If it isn't based on trophies, what is it based on? You're an Arsenal fan right? I take it you're happy not winning the Premier League year after year? Would you excuse that fact amongst your fellow Arsenal fan's by stating that you're 'doing well'in the rankings? It seems to me that pointing out where England actually ARE seems to be a crime when we're talking about football.🤔 If I said to my fellow Celtic supporters that during the 90's we were 'doing well in the rankings', I'd be hung up by the stones at Glasgow Cross. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Dec 12, 2022 14:49:43 GMT
Bonkers rogue
Of course, for the lucky few clubs/countries, football is about silverware - and that is the ultimate measure of success
But does that mean that when discussing "current form" you ignore everything else? Of course not
Does that mean every team/country that doesn't win silverware is a failure? Again, obviously not, or no one would ever bother to support a team/country
If you are ranking England - on "current form" - based on history since the start of international football, then I can see how you arrive at that conclusion, BUT...
...you have conflated history and "current form" into some kind of hybrid which means that only the actual historical winners can be labelled an in form country
What about Croatia? Presumably "languishing in Tier 3" (or perhaps maybe lower as they have never won anything at all) and yet here they are in the semi finals this WC, and of course runners up in 2018
Italy who have failed to qualify for the last two World Cups and are obviously badly out of form are in Tier 1 on current form. Get real rogue
Because it suits your bias you ignore the FIFA rankings despite being widely accepted as the best objective measure of a country's current form and position in relation to other countries
You want it all ways and it is totally illogical
As a non-England fan there is no doubting that England are currently in the top 10 based on current form. Your illogical insistence on arguing the opposite must be a consequence of your unconscious bias
Let's take England out of the discussion
Please explain how Italy are in tier 1 on their woeful current form and yet Croatia would be tier 3 or maybe lower based on your rationale - and also how you justify your rankings. And bear in mind we are discussing "current form" here not history
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 15:33:52 GMT
Crazy logic going on here 😄
So because England's form has been woeful in the past and they have just been knocked out of yet another major tournament at the QF stage, more successful teams have to justify their success?😄
So what you're now saying that people support football knowing that they know that they're going to win fuck all? That's maybe true if that's what you're used to and you're happy with that.
Some wee teams are just happy to compete against the big teams. It's all relative.
However, none of this criteria applies to the England national team, who, whenever any major tournament comes around, slap their gums about winning this and winning that and envitably they get beaten at the same stage of the competition notwithstanding a couple of aberrations.
There are facts. Indisputable facts.
As for Croatia? Yes, they are certainly threatening to win a major competition but they would still be in the same Tier as England.
As for Italy....World Cup winners in 2006 and Euro winners in 2020.
Easily a better record than England. What major competitions did they win in those years?
|
|
