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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 12:49:13 GMT
My perceptions of the SNP differ from Roguey's in that I don't view them as being to the left of Labour (or at least the Corbyn version of Labour). In fact, I don't perceive them as true socialists at all. On the contrary, they're huge admirers of the Isle of Man and Ireland: Alex Salmond was great friends with our former Chief Minister Allan Bell and Nicola Sturgeon has also made several visits. I suspect an independent Scotland would very quickly adopt an offshore economic model, with low taxes (certainly low corporate taxes) attracting international business and funding a generous welfare state. The Isle of Man has clearly demonstrated that this can be done, with higher pensions and a better NHS than the UK, but with a maximum personal tax rate of 20% and no corporation tax, capital gains tax or inheritance tax. As such, I would foresee the SNP adopting policies that are simultaneously to the right and left of the UK Government. I wouldn't say the SNP are a socialist party either. Although they would claim to be social democrats. However I believe there are many socialists or left leaning individuals within their ranks. The fact that Corbyn talked a good socialist game despite not expelling the right wingers who were partly responsible for his downfall shows you the political make up of Labour. I'm an SNP voter tactically and once we get independence its imperative that a decent Republican Socialist party is formed in order to take back control of Scotland's resources for it's people.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 9, 2020 13:01:48 GMT
...considering you vote for a party that contains a large percentage of anti semites and people who start illegal wars in countries recognised as legitimate governments under international law
The election manifestos did not include anti-semitism or waging war I am appalled by both I'd be 100% behind this... Third of British people want to see Tony Blair tried as a war criminal over Iraq...
And I am very encouraged by this...
Rabbi Sacks believes Labour is finally taking anti-Semitism seriously: Keir Starmer is willing to take responsibility...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2020 16:43:40 GMT
...considering you vote for a party that contains a large percentage of anti semites and people who start illegal wars in countries recognised as legitimate governments under international law
The election manifestos did not include anti-semitism or waging war I am appalled by both I'd be 100% behind this... Third of British people want to see Tony Blair tried as a war criminal over Iraq...
And I am very encouraged by this...
Rabbi Sacks believes Labour is finally taking anti-Semitism seriously: Keir Starmer is willing to take responsibility...
Political parties promise lots on manifestos and rarely deliver. So what does that tell you? You shouldn't be naive enough to think that the Labour Party aren't pro militaristic and war look at their history in Ireland. Absolutely shocking but not surprising. A right wing Blairite like Starmer investigating Anti Semitism is just a bigot swapping prejudices I.e. Islamaphobia.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 9, 2020 17:07:13 GMT
Maybe so
Better than the (viable) alternatives
And obviously far from perfect
Rock. Hard place.
If you want to vote then it's least worst
In an ideal world (proportional representation) I'd be all over a radical green party
Environment / climate emergency is clearly the most urgent issue for us all
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2020 17:42:25 GMT
So that makes it ok then? Continuing to support a party which supported an illegal war against a sovereign country which was backed by a right wing Tory Party.
The first thing you can acknowledge is that both Scotland and Ireland have the right to self determination.
You might continue to vote for Labour but with Starmer in charge it's only a matter of time before they get into the gutter with both the Brexit Party and the Tory party to squabble over the racist vote in their former heartlands ifthey haven't already done so.
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Post by zeopold on Oct 9, 2020 18:49:28 GMT
Starmer comes across as a man of principle, my favourite party leader since Smith. So far so good....
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 9, 2020 19:13:00 GMT
Starmer comes across as a man of principle, my favourite party leader since Smith. So far so good.... He's great. I'm very impressed so far So that makes it ok then? Continuing to support a party which supported an illegal war against a sovereign country which was backed by a right wing Tory Party. I was appalled by both the Iraq War and the anti-semitism (see above)
The first thing you can acknowledge is that both Scotland and Ireland have the right to self determination. Acknowledged You might continue to vote for Labour but with Starmer in charge it's only a matter of time before they get into the gutter with both the Brexit Party and the Tory party to squabble over the racist vote in their former heartlands if they haven't already done so. Possibly Preferable to the Tories though
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2020 19:47:44 GMT
Starmer comes across as a man of principle, my favourite party leader since Smith. So far so good.... People rejoiced when Smith died in Scotland. A man made in Hugh Gaitskell's ugly image. A yes man for Thatcherite Labour Brits.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2020 19:50:13 GMT
Starmer comes across as a man of principle, my favourite party leader since Smith. So far so good.... He's great. I'm very impressed so far So that makes it ok then? Continuing to support a party which supported an illegal war against a sovereign country which was backed by a right wing Tory Party. I was appalled by both the Iraq War and the anti-semitism (see above)
The first thing you can acknowledge is that both Scotland and Ireland have the right to self determination. Acknowledged You might continue to vote for Labour but with Starmer in charge it's only a matter of time before they get into the gutter with both the Brexit Party and the Tory party to squabble over the racist vote in their former heartlands if they haven't already done so. Possibly Preferable to the Tories though So the same racism is necessary? Tell me. What do you think of Starmers view on Immigration?
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Bassy
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Post by Bassy on Oct 9, 2020 21:51:25 GMT
Starmer is clearly more serious, focused and capable than Johnson. Almost every PMQT in the Commons sees Starmer make Johnson look like the blustering incompetent that many of us always knew he was.
Let's be clear ; Starmer isn't interested in what people on the Left think about him. He and the Labour Party think that they've got the Left's vote by default. He has one target ; the people who voted for Blair and who were scared by an actual Socialist (Corbyn) leading the party. If he can recover a proportion of those votes, he'll lead Labour to electoral victory.
The question which needs to be asked is whether a Labour Party fashioned in Starmer's image is anything to be enthused by. I'm certainly not excited by the prospect of a Labour Government under Starmer's leadership. I was very excited by the idea of Corbyn moving into no. 10.
The reality is that we have a Labour Party leader who is "moderate", a "realist" and won't scare the middle class. He will continue to demonstrate that he's "responsible" by supporting almost all of the Government's Covid policies.
We don't know what he really stands for/believes in, if anything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2020 23:36:48 GMT
I accept most of that but it doesn't really say much about Starmer.
He's Prime Minister Fat Fudge.
His record on the 'middle east' is 'water tight'(so to take away the lingering death of Blairism)but he admits he's a Zionist because of Israel's absolutism.
Another diddy trying to ride two rectums with the one knob that is the Labour Parry horse.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Oct 10, 2020 7:47:05 GMT
The Tories are horrible - we all know that
Labour are better
Maybe not as much as many here would like but they'd obviously be a massive improvement
They are also the ONLY realistic option in our first past the post system
I am not a member of the Labour Party
I am not massively invested in them
Voting for them is the only rational option if you hate the Tories - sadly
So far, I am very impressed with Starmer but, as Bassy rightly asks, what does he actually stand for? Should he ever get into power he will have to compromise and will inevitably disappoint many.
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Post by zeopold on Oct 10, 2020 9:31:55 GMT
Starmer isn't interested in what people on the Left think about him The majority of the UK electorate aren't interested in the Left either, so he might be on to something.
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Post by zeopold on Oct 10, 2020 9:47:05 GMT
I am not a member of the Labour Party I am. I consider it my patriotic duty... when they're not starting illegal wars, flirting with communism, and baiting Jews, obvs.
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Bassy
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Post by Bassy on Oct 10, 2020 10:15:22 GMT
During my life, there have only been two General Elections where I felt that I was voting positively FOR something, rather than simply AGAINST the Tories ; Kinnock in 1992 and Corbyn last year.
So, it's back to the depressing reality of voting Labour with no genuine enthusiasm or belief that anything important will change for the better should they win.
The prospect of slightly more competently and humanely managed Capitalism hardly gets the heart racing, does it ?
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