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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 27, 2020 15:27:24 GMT
I would vote Green/communist and encourage the break up of Britain as both Labour and the Tories are extreme right wing parties. Although of course with first past the post, in the scenario I outline, that's helping the Tories to win the seat I vote for the least worst option who have a chance of winning - as most voters do
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 18:36:44 GMT
Theres a fag paper of a difference between them and both would go to war and shaft the poor with gusto so to your average worker what difference does it make?
This will be illustrated even more when Starmer moves even more to the right to placate the Northern racist voters.
By voting for them/him you are also responsible for this.
That's politics.
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Post by smogquixote on Jun 28, 2020 8:25:09 GMT
Riveting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 9:01:15 GMT
So it doesn't really help England, just helps the other countries? I would imagine the break up is inevitable now Johnson shafted the DUP Scotland must surely get another independence vote which it's hard to see not resulting in an independent Scotland Not sure where Wales stands in all this - the majority there might be happy to stay linked to England Get rid of the Labour Party and you might get somewhere in England but I fear it's too late. Voting for Brexit was the death knell for the progressive English working class. Now you have a situation which is comparable to America- two right wing parties offering right wing policies to a selfish 'I'm All Right Jack' right wing working class.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 28, 2020 9:09:24 GMT
So we're fucked?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 9:42:15 GMT
Pretty much so. Yes.
First thing would be is to acknowledge that the break up of Britain is a positive step. Not just for Scotland and (occupied)Ireland but for England itself.
There has to be a re-examination of what being English is.
The 'statues'debate is one small step but look at the reaction that has provoked amongst the white working class?
Examining the racist and imperialist history has to be tackled head on by admitting that both Churchill and Nelson weren't heroes but were racists, pirates and profiteers.
If England doesn't do this then it looks as if it'll descent into a war between the right wing working class and people who'll resist them(ie black people and any progressive white people who are left)
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 28, 2020 9:57:48 GMT
Not sure there's much appetite for a re-examination of what being English is right now.
Perhaps we have to go through a few years (even decades) of shite before some kind of rebirth?
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 28, 2020 10:07:00 GMT
What do you think will be the process of re-examination for an independent Scotland?
Acknowledgement of involvement in the slave trade?
Glasgow's mercantile past and it entanglement with the Transatlantic slave trade?
Enthusiasm for and participation in the British Empire?
How would that work? Something like the truth and reconciliation process in post apartheid South Africa?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 10:07:52 GMT
England had a radical history as well as an imperialist one but the problem is the British Left themselves and it's cheerleading of the Labour Party.
Until they break from their Labourist mentality they'll be tied to it and remain an irrelevance to the English working class.
That's why they attack both the SNP here in Scotland and Sinn Fein in Ireland because they offer and provide an alternative to them.
Starmer knows that Labour are fucked in Scotland and yet pig headedly refuses to acknowledge the wishes of a huge percentage of the Scottish electorate (more than half).
He's a right wing, arrogant ignoramous.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 10:16:08 GMT
What do you think will be the process of re-examination for an independent Scotland? Acknowledgement of involvement in the slave trade? Glasgow's mercantile past and it entanglement with the Transatlantic slave trade? Enthusiasm for and participation in the British Empire? How would that work? Something like the truth and reconciliation process in post apartheid South Africa? Glasgow(like Bristol)has to have an overhaul of it's street names which 'honour' people who profited from the slave trade. It's long overdue. This was done recently when republicans renamed the streets after people like Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks etc. However, over the last few weeks Loyalists and the Orange Order have been coming into George Square(to 'protect' the Cenotaph when no-one had actually threatened it)and attack anti racists and Asylum Seeker campaigners. Police Scotland let them attack an anti racist demo two weeks ago and 'kettled' Republicans so it shows you where their loyalties lie. Glasgow has a proud socialist history which the Labour Party have basically smothered.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 28, 2020 10:42:46 GMT
Do the SNP have some kind of review as part of their post independence process?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 11:02:29 GMT
How do you mean 'review'?
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 28, 2020 11:26:58 GMT
As you say above, for England, examining the racist and imperialist history has to be tackled head on
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Post by politician2 on Jun 28, 2020 11:47:16 GMT
My perceptions of the SNP differ from Roguey's in that I don't view them as being to the left of Labour (or at least the Corbyn version of Labour). In fact, I don't perceive them as true socialists at all. On the contrary, they're huge admirers of the Isle of Man and Ireland: Alex Salmond was great friends with our former Chief Minister Allan Bell and Nicola Sturgeon has also made several visits. I suspect an independent Scotland would very quickly adopt an offshore economic model, with low taxes (certainly low corporate taxes) attracting international business and funding a generous welfare state. The Isle of Man has clearly demonstrated that this can be done, with higher pensions and a better NHS than the UK, but with a maximum personal tax rate of 20% and no corporation tax, capital gains tax or inheritance tax. As such, I would foresee the SNP adopting policies that are simultaneously to the right and left of the UK Government.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 12:43:49 GMT
As you say above, for England, examining the racist and imperialist history has to be tackled head on I've no idea if the SNP have a review to tackle the racist and imperialist history of Britain and Scotland's role in it. If they haven't, they should.
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