|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 8:03:25 GMT
I think there was racists in lots of punk scenes. My point is with the Clash Mark 2 is that they should have been educating their audience. When you say The Clash mark 2 do you mean after Terry Chimes left the first time and Topper joined? I suspect The Clash would argue that putting Grandmaster Flash and Bad Brains on the same bill (or Suicide) was part of an attempt to educate the audience. Hard to know what else they can do once the show is underway. What did you have in mind? Evening classes? |
|
|
|
Post by zeopold on Jun 30, 2021 8:05:41 GMT
^^ You: "As far as rock bands went they were bloody awful." Likesay... not as awful as Crass, by a comfortable margin  Didn't most of the Pistols audience declare it was noisey, badly played shite in the beginning? I saw Crass 7 or 8 times between 79 and 81. Unlike many of the original punk groups, they did not progress musically over time. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 8:06:10 GMT
The Clash were marketed to squabble over the white man's cod reggae audience that both the Police and UB40 had. You're wrong The Police were a pop group, pure and simple who based much of their pop sound on reggae UB40 were a multi racial reggae group who were actually quite popular in Jamaica, and all over the world The Clash did the odd reggae influenced tune but were never marketed to the "cod reggae audience" (if such a thing even existed) or any reggae audience  |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 8:10:53 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that, say, these are not good songs...? I get that you don't personally like them but try to be objective about their impact, tunefulness, lyrical content etc. and consider why they remain so popular all these decades later The Clash - Straight to HellThe Clash - Atom TanI don't like them but some people are easily swayed 😎 🤩 What does that mean? Easily swayed, how? By a good tune? What is your beef with The Clash? Aside from not liking the music. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:16:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:16:03 GMT
I'm not really sure what exactly the point is, that Lester Bangs is trying to make, in that long and rambling piece. Punk at that time was a magnet for all kinds of people, some with good intentions, others bad... and the use of symbols like the Swastika didn't exactly help the positive. The western world was awash with Racism (...and sexism) at that time ...and have things got any better? well, at least there is now more discussion about it. Alot of Punk bands tried to break the taboos, with mixed results... but then again pop bands like The Equals and Hot Chocolate were doing it too, nearly ten years before them. I think The Clash were trying to open the eyes and ears of the more narrow minded section of their audience, and as your audience increases and you play to much bigger audiences... in their specific case in New York at Bonds, 17 nights in a row in a club that holds 1800 people (do the maths) ...inevitably the possibility for failure increases. It says a lot about the Clash that they didn't really much to say at this point. As a band who were against racism supposedly it seems that the racists in the audience weren't challenged according to Steven Blush. At a lot of punk gigs I attended there were fights with racists and fascists as a zero tolerance approach was adopted. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:19:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:19:56 GMT
I think there was racists in lots of punk scenes. My point is with the Clash Mark 2 is that they should have been educating their audience. When you say The Clash mark 2 do you mean after Terry Chimes left the first time and Topper joined? I suspect The Clash would argue that putting Grandmaster Flash and Bad Brains on the same bill (or Suicide) was part of an attempt to educate the audience. Hard to know what else they can do once the show is underway. What did you have in mind? Evening classes? Clash Mark 1-Good band who had something to say. Clash Mark 2-Shit rock band with nothing to say. Yes it was a good idea to have Bad Brains on. Pity that the Clash didn't challenge the racists when they were using the n word and trying to assault them. Maybe you could suggest something rather than sticking your head in the sand pretending that these type of events don't happen. |
|
loz
Full Member
Posts: 116
|
Post by loz on Jun 30, 2021 11:23:54 GMT
I liked some of the Clash and some ( most) of Crass out put.
As to the comment on Crass and their ideas being naive, I dispute, yes some of the ideas were a bit out there but the ideas sowed seeds for alternative thinking...and that was the point was it not??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:25:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:25:54 GMT
The Clash were marketed to squabble over the white man's cod reggae audience that both the Police and UB40 had. You're wrong The Police were a pop group, pure and simple who based much of their pop sound on reggae UB40 were a multi racial reggae group who were actually quite popular in Jamaica, and all over the world The Clash did the odd reggae influenced tune but were never marketed to the "cod reggae audience" (if such a thing even existed) or any reggae audience Don't be so naive. What do you think Bernie Rhodes was promoting?World Revolution🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by doug61 on Jun 30, 2021 11:27:31 GMT
^^ Well, I guess that's a matter of taste, but in terms of musicianship The Clash were light years ahead of Crass. I saw them play numerous times, and they were dire. One of their guitarists literally couldn't play a chord, just slid his finger up and down the fretboard on an open tuning. Of course, they were more about the message than the music, which was fine until I hit 17 and realised that their message, laudable as it may have been, was hopelessly naive. You could say that thinking the UK will ever have a proper socialist government is hopelessly naive, but a lot of people still put their hope in it. Any politics in music is pretty much naive as it's usually spouted by teenagers without much experience in reality. Can't bring myself to be against hopeless romantics with a bit of righteous anger, the world could do with a lot more of it. |
|
|
|
Post by doug61 on Jun 30, 2021 11:31:17 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that, say, these are not good songs...? I get that you don't personally like them but try to be objective about their impact, tunefulness, lyrical content etc. and consider why they remain so popular all these decades later The Clash - Straight to HellThe Clash - Atom TanI'd also pick you up on The Clash being in competition with UB40 and The Police? That's so far wide of the mark it's insane They were marketed to squabble over the white man's cod reggae audience that both the Police and UB40 had. The Clash version of Reggae I would argue was not "cod" in the same way as the Ruts weren't cod. They embraced it and added it to their existing template rather than making a white pastiche of it as the Police did. UB40 I believe were massively successful and admired in Jamaica, so whatever we think (I like a couple of early singles) those in the know who were originators of the sound were big fans. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:36:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:36:18 GMT
I don't like them but some people are easily swayed 😎 🤩 What does that mean? Easily swayed, how? By a good tune? What is your beef with The Clash? Aside from not liking the music. I see them for what they are/were Good band but got delusions of grandeur and wanted to be rock stars. It's just rock'n'roll. Accept it and move on👍 |
|
|
|
Post by doug61 on Jun 30, 2021 11:40:19 GMT
My whole experience of people from the punk days and their attitude to the Clash has been that those who don't like them will use a number of sticks to beat them with but their main problem is that the Clash did not stay true to the sound of their first album which all bands are supposed to in some punk circles. Punk bands to some are supposed to remain frozen in amber forever linking themselves to a moment of our youth when we were angriest and before life wore us down.
I have no problem with that and it works well for some bands that stayed rudimentary so can't really evolve, but I dislike the reverse prog rock snobbery that says that obtaining talent is a bad thing in itself and a sign of selling out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:44:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:44:33 GMT
I think it's about putting it into perspective.
The Clash were an important band in the early days but to say that they should be revered for everything they released is just nonsense.
You get that odd, almost surreal scenario displayed on here by people who listen to them, know it's shit and still praise it.
And for what? Just because it's the Clash.
Insane.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Clash
Jun 30, 2021 11:47:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 11:47:21 GMT
My whole experience of people from the punk days and their attitude to the Clash has been that those who don't like them will use a number of sticks to beat them with but their main problem is that the Clash did not stay true to the sound of their first album which all bands are supposed to in some punk circles. Punk bands to some are supposed to remain frozen in amber forever linking themselves to a moment of our youth when we were angriest and before life wore us down. I have no problem with that and it works well for some bands that stayed rudimentary so can't really evolve, but I dislike the reverse prog rock snobbery that says that obtaining talent is a bad thing in itself and a sign of selling out. I like plenty of bands/people who've progressed. It's just that some people do it better than others. I mean look at Ian MacKaye. |
|
|
|
Post by andyloneshark on Jun 30, 2021 11:54:41 GMT
...i have been trying to find a reference to it online, but i seem to recall years ago reading something that despite his credentials being impressive, called out Steven Blush about the authenticity of his accounts of certain events.
|
|
