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Post by zeopold on Jun 30, 2021 12:00:21 GMT
As to the comment on Crass and their ideas being naive I formed that opinion with regard to their 'Anarchy & Peace' tagline at their aborted Stonehenge 1980 show. That was anarchy, all right... and anything but peaceful. To be fair, their hearts were in the right place, though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 12:03:10 GMT
...i have been trying to find a reference to it online, but i seem to recall years ago reading something that despite his credentials being impressive, called out Steven Blush about the authenticity of his accounts of certain events. Its in the American Hardcore book Andy. You could doubt the veracity of his opinion which is fair enough but you could do that with that lots of people'in the know'. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 12:03:25 GMT
...i have been trying to find a reference to it online, but i seem to recall years ago reading something that despite his credentials being impressive, called out Steven Blush about the authenticity of his accounts of certain events. A lot of these writers who do oral histories already have a narrative they want to impose - by editing the quotes they can support (or not) that narrative they want to create Whilst these books are interesting to people who weren't there I think the reader always needs to be aware that there's no such thing as objectivity and anyone creating this type of book brings their own set of values, beliefs and agenda to the telling of a story I've never read Blush's book but have noticed people questioning his account. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 12:05:29 GMT
How do you know it's true or not if a)you haven't read it and(b)you weren't there.
It's an opinion he stands by with. Can you disprove it?
Let's see your evidence.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 12:08:47 GMT
Yes it was a good idea to have Bad Brains on. Pity that the Clash didn't challenge the racists when they were using the n word and trying to assault them. Maybe you could suggest something rather than sticking your head in the sand pretending that these type of events don't happen. I don't know if the events happened. I wasn't there Let's assume it went down as Blush stated, I come back to my question, what exactly would you have The Clash do in that situation? You're wrong The Police were a pop group, pure and simple who based much of their pop sound on reggae UB40 were a multi racial reggae group who were actually quite popular in Jamaica, and all over the world The Clash did the odd reggae influenced tune but were never marketed to the "cod reggae audience" (if such a thing even existed) or any reggae audience Don't be so naive. What do you think Bernie Rhodes was promoting?World Revolution🤣 Of course not. He's promoting his group. But he never promoted them to "a cod reggae" audience I see them for what they are/were Good band but got delusions of grandeur and wanted to be rock stars. It's just rock'n'roll. Accept it and move on👍 I do accept it What's wrong with wanting to be rock stars? You get that odd, almost surreal scenario displayed on here by people who listen to them, know it's shit and still praise it That's just wishful thinking on your part Rogue You think it's shit so you assume everyone else (secretly) agrees  |
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Post by zeopold on Jun 30, 2021 12:11:06 GMT
Punk bands to some are supposed to remain frozen in amber forever linking themselves to a moment of our youth when we were angriest ...and before they learned to play |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 12:14:15 GMT
I was making a general point about oral histories - the compiler/author brings their own values, beliefs and agenda to the telling of a story.
I have no idea what is true and what is distorted in American Hardcore. Even if I had first hand knowledge I doubt I would have seen things to how other observers did. That's the way memory works. No such thing as objective truth.
However I am sure we have all experienced how different people see the same event in different ways and how, over time, memories can get seriously distorted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 12:50:26 GMT
I was making a general point about oral histories - the compiler/author brings their own values, beliefs and agenda to the telling of a story. I have no idea what is true and what is distorted in American Hardcore. Even if I had first hand knowledge I doubt I would have seen things to how other observers did. That's the way memory works. No such thing as objective truth. However I am sure we have all experienced how different people see the same event in different ways and how, over time, memories can get seriously distorted. That's true. However, my point by bringing that up was to juxtapose the possibility that the Clash's later career was about becoming rockstars first and how the band obviously weren't communicating when it came to promoting the issues that made their name as a punk band. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 12:58:44 GMT
Yes it was a good idea to have Bad Brains on. Pity that the Clash didn't challenge the racists when they were using the n word and trying to assault them. Maybe you could suggest something rather than sticking your head in the sand pretending that these type of events don't happen. I don't know if the events happened. I wasn't there Let's assume it went down as Blush stated, I come back to my question, what exactly would you have The Clash do in that situation? Don't be so naive. What do you think Bernie Rhodes was promoting?World Revolution🤣 Of course not. He's promoting his group. But he never promoted them to "a cod reggae" audience I see them for what they are/were Good band but got delusions of grandeur and wanted to be rock stars. It's just rock'n'roll. Accept it and move on👍 I do accept it What's wrong with wanting to be rock stars? You get that odd, almost surreal scenario displayed on here by people who listen to them, know it's shit and still praise it That's just wishful thinking on your part Rogue You think it's shit so you assume everyone else (secretly) agrees So you think the Clash should have ignored the racist abuse of their support bands? They could have stopped playing for a start. A lot of people don't like later Clash but are loathe to admit it because of their silly sychophant fans. With me, I have to be honest. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jun 30, 2021 13:26:34 GMT
The Clash could have refused to play but then they'd be in breach of contract and liable for any legal claim It's also quite possible they weren't even aware that it happened. It's not uncommon for headliners not be around when the support acts are playing. We don't even know if it happened, or if it did, how obvious it was to the artists playing, whether it was one night or all the nights etc As Andy says... The western world was awash with Racism (...and sexism) at that time ...and have things got any better? well, at least there is now more discussion about it. A lot of Punk bands tried to break the taboos, with mixed results... but then again pop bands like The Equals and Hot Chocolate were doing it too, nearly ten years before them. I think The Clash were trying to open the eyes and ears of the more narrow minded section of their audience, and as your audience increases and you play to much bigger audiences... in their specific case in New York at Bonds, 17 nights in a row in a club that holds 1800 people (do the maths) ...inevitably the possibility for failure increases. So, to be clear, if you had been The Clash at Bonds, and were aware that a section of the crowd had abused the support acts you would have refused to play the gigs? Re: sycophantic fans - you said there are people on here who listen to The Clash, know it's shit and still praise it which is patently nonsense. Unless I'm missing something? Re: The Clash wanting to be rock stars - What's wrong with wanting to be rock stars? Re: The Clash being marketed to a cod reggae audience - this is nonsense. Unless I'm missing somthing? |
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Post by zeopold on Jun 30, 2021 13:38:02 GMT
While we're on the topic it's high time we had a pic of the boys hanging around the 'troubles' looking cool as f*** in their new wave clobber   |
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Post by Billy Idle on Jun 30, 2021 13:43:17 GMT
One thing we can all agree about is that The Clash were never racists and were clear in their opposition to racism.
You could maybe argue that they could have done more but its not like they did nothing.
Cancelling an important series of concerts would have been crazy. It was probably just a bunch of vocal idiots so why should everyone in the crowd suffer and the band have to repay the promoter.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 14:02:26 GMT
The Clash could have refused to play but then they'd be in breach of contract and liable for any legal claim It's also quite possible they weren't even aware that it happened. It's not uncommon for headliners not be around when the support acts are playing. We don't even know if it happened, or if it did, how obvious it was to the artists playing, whether it was one night or all the nights etc As Andy says... The western world was awash with Racism (...and sexism) at that time ...and have things got any better? well, at least there is now more discussion about it. A lot of Punk bands tried to break the taboos, with mixed results... but then again pop bands like The Equals and Hot Chocolate were doing it too, nearly ten years before them. I think The Clash were trying to open the eyes and ears of the more narrow minded section of their audience, and as your audience increases and you play to much bigger audiences... in their specific case in New York at Bonds, 17 nights in a row in a club that holds 1800 people (do the maths) ...inevitably the possibility for failure increases. So, to be clear, if you had been The Clash at Bonds, and were aware that a section of the crowd had abused the support acts you would have refused to play the gigs? Re: sycophantic fans - you said there are people on here who listen to The Clash, know it's shit and still praise it which is patently nonsense. Unless I'm missing something? Re: The Clash wanting to be rock stars - What's wrong with wanting to be rock stars? Re: The Clash being marketed to a cod reggae audience - this is nonsense. Unless I'm missing somthing? Firstly being a 'radical' rock star certainly can be a way of selling records that's for sure. It's just an image.Lucrative for some Also, do you think the Clash would have been'in breach of contract' if they stopped playing at Victoria Park for RAR because people were being racist? The racists would have been sorted out by the security stewards but it's important to back an anti racist message surely? What's more important to you? Breach of contract or standing up to racism? Stop making excuses. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 14:04:34 GMT
One thing we can all agree about is that The Clash were never racists and were clear in their opposition to racism. You could maybe argue that they could have done more but its not like they did nothing. Cancelling an important series of concerts would have been crazy. It was probably just a bunch of vocal idiots so why should everyone in the crowd suffer and the band have to repay the promoter. I think getting bombarded with beer cans to the chant of'N******' would and should be enough to stop any show. It should never be tolerated. |
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Post by doug61 on Jun 30, 2021 14:57:12 GMT
What does that mean? Easily swayed, how? By a good tune? What is your beef with The Clash? Aside from not liking the music. I see them for what they are/were Good band but got delusions of grandeur and wanted to be rock stars. It's just rock'n'roll. Accept it and move on👍 "delusions of grandeur and wanted to be rock stars." Same as 99.9% of all bands including punk ones. |
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