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Post by andyloneshark on Jun 30, 2021 21:10:29 GMT
There are quotes online from members of Grandmaster Flash saying there were people in the audience at Bonds the night they played giving them a hard time... no mention of violence or rascism though... just booing... which you can get at any Rock gig, big or small... Punk or otherwise. Joe Strummer chided the audience for their ignorance. Apparently when Kurtis Blow supported The Clash in New York a year later, the audience response was positive rather than hostile.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:30:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 22:30:16 GMT
No idea rogue. Lots of potential reasons but it's pointless to speculate. I thought it was worth posting though. Darryl was there after all and yet, when asked about racism, he doesn't mention what Blush reports as a serious incident. Let's face it we'll never know, but it certainly gives pause for thought. Most people would mention being pelted with beer cans whilst a crowd racially abused them in reply to a question about their experience of racism. Maybe it happened. Maybe it didn't. I've looked around online for any evidence of this incident but did not find anything. Because he didn't mention it, it didn't happen? You can try and revise it out of existence but but means it didn't happen. Blush claims to be an eye witness. Again, you have to ask why he would make it up and again why no one has-to my knowledge- called him a liar. He was and is quite an authoritative participant in hardcore I believe who knew all the major bands as a promoter amongst other things. |
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Jun 30, 2021 22:31:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 22:31:35 GMT
There are quotes online from members of Grandmaster Flash saying there were people in the audience at Bonds the night they played giving them a hard time... no mention of violence or rascism though... just booing... which you can get at any Rock gig, big or small... Punk or otherwise. Joe Strummer chided the audience for their ignorance. Apparently when Kurtis Blow supported The Clash in New York a year later, the audience response was positive rather than hostile. Again that didn't mean it didn't happen. |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 1, 2021 6:53:36 GMT
One thing we can all agree about is that The Clash were never racists and were clear in their opposition to racism. You could maybe argue that they could have done more but its not like they did nothing. Cancelling an important series of concerts would have been crazy. It was probably just a bunch of vocal idiots so why should everyone in the crowd suffer and the band have to repay the promoter. If they'd cancelled the US shows they'd never have been booked again in America, The insurance loss to the backers would have been massive. The idea that a band in their position even has the "power" to cancel is naive, it would have no doubt bankrupted them as a going concern. The other more general point about the Bonds shows is that the promoter had oversold it. I can't remember the figures but almost double the amount of tickets compared to the legal capacity. That's why The Clash, who didn't want to disappoint any fans who had bought a ticket, ended up doing such a long run of shows at the same venue. Not typical rock star behaviour |
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 1, 2021 6:55:26 GMT
All good points rogue Having weighted the current evidence I'm putting him in the unreliable witness category I conclude if it happened it was nowhere near as dramatic as Blush (via you) suggests That the bassist fails to mention it means whatever happened cannot have been that bad. Most likely sections of the crowd were booing which, as Andy states, can happen at any gig Andy's clued-up mate also questions Blush's credibility which makes me even more dubious about his claims - along with my not being able to find any other supporting evidence. I did find other Bad Brains quotes that cite The Clash as a big inspiration. Bottom line, I don't know and you don't know. We're just trying to make sense of it through scrappy pieces of evidence In answer to why would he make it up? I don't know. But that doesn't mean he didn't make it up. As Doug says on The Clash thread lots of people (yourself included) like to beat The Clash with whatever they can find to rubbish them. There are quotes online from members of Grandmaster Flash saying there were people in the audience at Bonds the night they played giving them a hard time... no mention of violence or rascism though... just booing... which you can get at any Rock gig, big or small... Punk or otherwise. Joe Strummer chided the audience for their ignorance. Apparently when Kurtis Blow supported The Clash in New York a year later, the audience response was positive rather than hostile. Again that didn't mean it didn't happen. Suggests it probably didn't though PS: I moved The Clash posts from the racism at CBGBs thread to this one |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 7:30:48 GMT
I've heard some nonsense in my time but takes the cake...!
...and you haven't even read the book!
The point isn't really about Bad Brains if you remember- it was about how latter day Clash weren't communicating.
So the'evidence'stands as this.
An eye witness account written by someone who was present at the beginning of GBGB's and saw the birth of the Ramones, Talking Heads and who knew all the major participants in US hardcore, ie Jello, Henry Rollins, Ian MacKaye etc.
Against-Non interviews online and 'Andy's mate'.🤣
I'll leave it there as this thread lacks any real substance other than'don't criticise the Clash'.
I'll make points about racism regarding where it happens and who's responsible for it.
Surely you must know me by now👍
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Jul 1, 2021 8:05:26 GMT
Fair enough. It's maybe a good example of how we bring our own perceptions, values and beliefs to a set of information.
For example, we both read another book (Memoirs of a Geezer) and came to very different conclusions about what the author was saying (BUT let's not reopen that particular can of worms)
For me the most powerful evidence against the Blush account (via you) is that both black artists on the bill that night do not mention what Blush describes (if I've understood you correctly) as a serious and sustained racially motivated attack on both artists. I am convinced Darryl J would have mentioned it if it had been as serious as described, similarly I would expect members of Grandmaster Flash to highlight it too. At best it seems an exaggeration, at worst a lie.
The general point about The Clash not communicating still baffles me. When the crowd gave a support artist a hard time Joe Strummer chided them for their ignorance. If Bad Brains or Grandmaster Flash had been pelted with beer cans and racially abused to the extent you claim then I am convinced they would have done something more.
We agree that The Clash wanted to be rock stars - and why not? That they played so many nights at Bonds, and chose deliberately diverse and interesting support acts, suggests their hearts remained in the right place for all their career ambitions. They could have easily just switched to a bigger venue and just done one night. They could have not taken any interest in the support acts, let alone promote black artists they enjoyed, appreciated and wanted to support.
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Post by andyloneshark on Jul 1, 2021 8:18:43 GMT
Can you remember what page of the American Hardcore book the paragraphs about the gigs at Bonds are, R.P.? i have been reading through passages of chapters trying to find it. It’s a really good book, really well structured… but like i say, i know that Steven Blush has come under scrutiny and criticism himself as a consequence of his writing. I am just trying to get a bit of perspective on what he claims.
As for The Clash… well, i certainly don’t put them on any kind of ‘untouchable’ pedestal. Joe Strummer himself said they made every mistake in the book - For me they were not “The Only Band That Mattered” …far from it …but if they just wanted to be Rock Stars and nothing else, they could have made life a lot easier for themselves… especially regarding the cost of some of their records, ticket price for some of their gigs and the promotion of their records.
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Post by zeopold on Jul 1, 2021 9:45:12 GMT
I'll make points about racism regarding where it happens and who's responsible for it. Surely you must know me by now👍 I bet your cape is emblazoned with a crossed-out swastika  |
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Post by Billy Idle on Jul 1, 2021 9:47:30 GMT
I'll make points about racism regarding where it happens and who's responsible for it. Surely you must know me by now👍 I bet your cape is emblazoned with a crossed-out swastika  |
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Post by zeopold on Jul 1, 2021 9:58:13 GMT
^^ That's a vintage 'Combat Rock' tour t-shirt depicting Strummer taking the swasi out of the bin |
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Post by doug61 on Jul 1, 2021 12:23:28 GMT
Don't think that anyone thinks they should be revered, just that they don't deserve the over the top slaggings they tend to get. "You get that odd, almost surreal scenario displayed on here by people who listen to them, know it's shit and still praise it." Not sure you can claim to know what people really think just because you don't enjoy it yourself, personally I liked most of their output up to "Combat Rock" although filler was creeping in before that. People like what they like, i'm not much of a fan of "hardcore punk" but believe you are, if I said "you know it's shit but still praise it" wouldn't that be ridiculous and unfair? I think most of Sandinista was 'filler' but it's hailed as a classic and revered now as some brilliant record. It wasn't. If someone listened to hardcore punk and didn't like it then that's up to them. Why would I expect them to like it? What I find silly is people not liking music when they haven't even heard it. Or even worse, waiting until someone else deciding that they like or don't like it. Crazy but that's what happens on here🤣 I can say hand on heart I have never seen Sandanista hailed as a classic. Most people agree it's a very good single album padded out to a treble with filler (some frankly terrible). London Calling is the one that tends to get the accolades heaped on it. The point I was trying to make with hardcore was that you don't know that people are praising Clash stuff whilst knowing it's shit, that's just you painting others with your own preconceptions of the band, they may genuinely enjoy it. Everyone has different tastes. |
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Post by doug61 on Jul 1, 2021 12:29:22 GMT
I saw Crass 7 or 8 times between 79 and 81. Unlike many of the original punk groups, they did not progress musically over time. I think thet definitely did. In fact some of it surpassed a lot of the early punk bands. I mean when the Pistols reformed in 96 some of the sound was utter pish given the resources. Mind you Rottens vocals ruined a lot of the songs with that awful shriek he does now. I actually thought it added a different dimension when I saw them at Finsbury Park that he sang the Pistols stuff with his PIL voice. The sound was definitely more conventional rock and beefy but that was just down to having got better musically and having better gear. Out of interest were others there?, they had a film tower set up somewhere back of front left of stage but I have never seen any lengthy pro footage of the gig, anyone know if it was fully pro shot? |
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Post by doug61 on Jul 1, 2021 12:31:43 GMT
I formed that opinion with regard to their 'Anarchy & Peace' tagline at their aborted Stonehenge 1980 show. That was anarchy, all right... and anything but peaceful. To be fair, their hearts were in the right place, though. Although I'm a peaceful person I was never a pacifist. Crass were genuine in what they believed. A lot of bands used politics just to make money. They still do. What "turning rebellion into money"  |
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Jul 1, 2021 20:26:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 20:26:42 GMT
^^ That's a vintage 'Combat Rock' tour t-shirt depicting Strummer taking the swasi out of the bin Where's the Combat Rock version? |
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