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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 11:14:52 GMT
Real punk is for punks who actually gave a fuck about people and what happened in the world. The posers were only interested in fashion and themselves Mulling this question further, and as a parent of two teenage kids, it's obvious and well documented that with all the life & hormonal changes, the teenage years are characterised by uncertainty, self absorbtion, insecurity, seeking identities, seeking to break from parents/authority figures etc etc I also volunteer with a youth group In my experience many teens, maybe most, are preoccupied with having a good time, experimentation, and their peers. Political and community engagement, where it exists, is more broadbrush than practical Point I'm trying to make it that young people typically want to go out and have a laugh. Or, as The Tams so memorably put it... Be Young Be Foolish Be Happy (1968)...and to put it another way, courtesy of the fantastic Fast Cars... The kids just wanna dance (1979)So yeah, to a large extent Rogue's assertion The posers were only interested in fashion and themselves is probably true But that's what teens do As for "real punks"... Real punk is for punks who actually gave a fuck about people and what happened in the world. I'll accept that definition though I'm not so sure how many actually fell into that category From my experience young people also get involved in politics as well as doing the things that young people do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 11:18:08 GMT
...i was recently chatting to a drummer friend in a local band, who must be at least 25+ years younger than me, about teenage fashion/youth culture and he very wisely pointed out that in the digital age, with the click of a few buttons, you can pass yourself off as anything. Street fashion over the last 50 years has been plundered for ideas, to be commodified - anything can be bought... even a designer 'CrustPunk Couch' for $4000 View AttachmentIt's the journey that's the catalyst not necessarily the music. It's no accident that the majority of the original punks are rabid right wingers/nazis I. E Lydon and Wobble respectively.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 10, 2020 11:33:37 GMT
From my experience young people also get involved in politics as well as doing the things that young people do. Some do, some don't Back to your definition of a real punk - someone who cares about others What examples have you got to bring this definition to life? Specifically, what were you, and real punks you knew, doing to help other people when you were 14-17?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 16:20:12 GMT
I've been politically active since I was 16.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 10, 2020 17:28:43 GMT
I've been politically active since I was 16 Impressive. I barely knew anything about politics at that age. Or really cared to be honest Never been that active really. Just delivering a few election pamphlets for Labour and Greens at various times (I realise that probably makes me a crypto-fascist to you )
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Post by zeopold on Sept 10, 2020 18:08:29 GMT
I've been politically active since I was 16 I barely knew anything about politics at that age. Or really cared to be honest I was bang on it from about 14; RAR, ANL, CND, NUSS (National Union of School Students... I got suspended for recruiting for them) My crowning moment was organising an impromptu counter-demo against the BM & NF in my home town when I was 15. My band were practising in the arts centre attached to our school on a weekend when we noticed a load of police assembling in the car park. I went out and asked them what they were up to and they said they were mobilising for a protest outside Winchester prison in support of Robert Relf, a nazi activist who had been jailed for advertising his house for sale to white buyers only. I phoned a lefty teacher at my school who had set me up as local youth rep for ANL and tipped her the wink, rounded up a few other mates and a few dozen of us rocked up outside the nick with hastily improvised placards, chanting 'Let Relf Rot!', facing off off against about 300 nazis, with the police trying to hold them back from lynching us. There was a re-match the following week when the fash mustered about 1000 to our 3000 after the call went out on a national level, and the tables were well and truly turned. A gold safety pin for me!
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 10, 2020 18:10:07 GMT
Nice work Zeo
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 21:21:10 GMT
I've been politically active since I was 16 Impressive. I barely knew anything about politics at that age. Or really cared to be honest Never been that active really. Just delivering a few election pamphlets for Labour and Greens at various times (I realise that probably makes me a crypto-fascist to you ) No but it explains why after the likes of Crass took punk by the scruff of the neck that a lot of punks became more radical. All the original punks became right wingers or more conservative-in short it was a musical fad to them. There are honourable exceptions though. I mean look at TV Smith, John Cooper Clarke etc
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 21:22:43 GMT
I barely knew anything about politics at that age. Or really cared to be honest I was bang on it from about 14; RAR, ANL, CND, NUSS (National Union of School Students... I got suspended for recruiting for them) My crowning moment was organising an impromptu counter-demo against the BM & NF in my home town when I was 15. My band were practising in the arts centre attached to our school on a weekend when we noticed a load of police assembling in the car park. I went out and asked them what they were up to and they said they were mobilising for a protest outside Winchester prison in support of Robert Relf, a nazi activist who had been jailed for advertising his house for sale to white buyers only. I phoned a lefty teacher at my school who had set me up as local youth rep for ANL and tipped her the wink, rounded up a few other mates and a few dozen of us rocked up outside the nick with hastily improvised placards, chanting 'Let Relf Rot!', facing off off against about 300 nazis, with the police trying to hold them back from lynching us. There was a re-match the following week when the fash mustered about 1000 to our 3000 after the call went out on a national level, and the tables were well and truly turned. A gold safety pin for me! Good for you👍
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 11, 2020 8:10:55 GMT
All the original punks became right wingers or more conservative - in short it was a musical fad to them I think it was a musical fad for most people I'm guessing you still define yourself as a punk? I'm not so sure many people in their 50s or 60s would do that. Perhaps some of the people who turn up to Rebellion, but even then by no means all. So, are you saying that anyone who views punk as more than "a musical fad" is also actively involved in radical left wing politics? You mention Crass, and their influence, but what about Oi and Streetpunk etc.? I'm asking because I'd have guessed things are a lot more nuanced than that But that's just my subjective perceptions
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 11:59:34 GMT
I would still identify as punk. I have absolutely no problem with that.
Punk has given me a lot and in some ways I shudder to think what I would be like without it.
Oi! was invented by Bushell. You can't take it seriously.
As for Crass, if it wasn't for them. Most punks would still be running around spitting on bands with swastika armbands on.
Their message was about treating people with respect and about not following fashion.
That's what I liked about them, they were so unfashionable.
Easily, the most important punk band.
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 11, 2020 12:39:29 GMT
So what year did you get into punk?
What attracted you?
When did you first become aware of Crass?
I certainly agree that their basic message is one any sane person should get behind
Out of curiosity did they convince you to become vegetarian, or vegan?
I suspect that, indirectly, they caused me to re-evaluate my food choices
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Post by zeopold on Sept 11, 2020 13:52:41 GMT
As for Crass, if it wasn't for them. Most punks would still be running around spitting on bands with swastika armbands on. What a lot of rot. I and many others I knew started following them cos they championed causes we were already on board with; vegetarianism, pacifism, anti-racism, etc, etc. It certainly wasn't for the music, which was dire. I tired of them pretty quickly when they inspired a deluge of crappy cookie-cutter copy bands and their johnny-come-lately camp followers started laying down the laws of punk... newly minted vegans trying to guilt-trip me for wearing a leather jacket when I'd already been veggie for 3 years, lol
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Post by Lord Emsworth on Sept 12, 2020 9:01:30 GMT
As for Crass, if it wasn't for them. Most punks would still be running around spitting on bands with swastika armbands on. What a lot of rot. I and many others I knew started following them cos they championed causes we were already on board with; vegetarianism, pacifism, anti-racism, etc, etc. It certainly wasn't for the music, which was dire. I tired of them pretty quickly when they inspired a deluge of crappy cookie-cutter copy bands and their johnny-come-lately camp followers started laying down the laws of punk... newly minted vegans trying to guilt-trip me for wearing a leather jacket when I'd already been veggie for 3 years, lol Last night I was thinking about spitting and swastikas The swastika was very short lived as I remember it. A stupid early shock tactic. Siouxsie, maybe Marco, anyone else? I suppose Sid had that Viv W t shirt too. The spitting was definitely well on the wane by mid 77. Pretty sure spitting would have died out anyway, with or without Crass.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 9:30:27 GMT
As for Crass, if it wasn't for them. Most punks would still be running around spitting on bands with swastika armbands on. What a lot of rot. I and many others I knew started following them cos they championed causes we were already on board with; vegetarianism, pacifism, anti-racism, etc, etc. It certainly wasn't for the music, which was dire. I tired of them pretty quickly when they inspired a deluge of crappy cookie-cutter copy bands and their johnny-come-lately camp followers started laying down the laws of punk... newly minted vegans trying to guilt-trip me for wearing a leather jacket when I'd already been veggie for 3 years, lol It's a fact. Other than TRB, X Ray Spex and the Ruts, the rest were just nihilistic posers until Crass came along. RAR were wary of punks due to their pathetic right wing posturing and to some extent rehabilitated the ones who were intelligent enough to get it. When Crass came along in 77 the real punks on masse got their message whilst the puppet punks and plastics got into Mod and started wearing mascara and blusher.
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